Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[elleryqueen74]

Although like pretty much everyone else I have no idea if Tabram was a JtR victim or not I am leaning towards that she was not.

Reasons being the differences in the killings themselves and also (this might be lame to some) that the accepted C5 were all killed in and around the weekends (Fri, Sat, Sun) where Tabram was killed on a Tuesday.

[GUT]

Which I am dieing to read.

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Tom



That I have no argument with, except I doubt that it applied to all lodging house owners. Also many landlords today essentially own areas, including, shops, pubs etc.



I presume you mean killed but I've never seen proof that even one was ever charged, let alone convicted of such an offense, but I may stand corrected, and even if so again it doesn't apply to all.



I'd need some serious evidence, including motive.

That's why I wrote a book about it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

There's a huge difference, which is what I learned in the course of my research. I had previously thought they were just businessmen. A handful of lodging house keepers in the East End essentially owned the place, including the police. They didn't just provide lodging, they ran the market on everything, including food, gambling, booze, etc.

That I have no argument with, except I doubt that it applied to all lodging house owners. Also many landlords today essentially own areas, including, shops, pubs etc.

And they could have you smudged out.

I presume you mean killed but I've never seen proof that even one was ever charged, let alone convicted of such an offense, but I may stand corrected, and even if so again it doesn't apply to all.

I think one or more of them had a hand in the Whitechapel murders. Perhaps not as the murderers themselves, but aiding and abetting them. They would have been in a unique position to do this.

I'd need some serious evidence, including motive.

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Tom

I don't know where what I just typed disappeared to but.

I don't see any real difference between a lodging house owner and a modern landlord they are both proving accommodation to some who cannot, or for some reason chooses not to, buy a permanent place of their won.

There's a huge difference, which is what I learned in the course of my research. I had previously thought they were just businessmen. A handful of lodging house keepers in the East End essentially owned the place, including the police. They didn't just provide lodging, they ran the market on everything, including food, gambling, booze, etc. And they could have you smudged out. I think one or more of them had a hand in the Whitechapel murders. Perhaps not as the murderers themselves, but aiding and abetting them. They would have been in a unique position to do this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

I don't know where what I just typed disappeared to but.

I don't see any real difference between a lodging house owner and a modern landlord they are both proving accommodation to some who cannot, or for some reason chooses not to, buy a permanent place of their won.

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Tom



No argument from me on that.

The point I was trying to make, perhaps poorly, was that in 1888, for some people the options of today did not exist.

No, sadly, they did no. And I point out in my book - amidst a lot of bashing of he lodging house keepers - that if not for them many people would have had to sleep rough.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

Also, I should point out that all these welfare systems and addiction treatments you guys refer to today do not keep people away from crime, drugs, and prostitution. There will always be those who choose that lifestyle.

No argument from me on that.

The point I was trying to make, perhaps poorly, was that in 1888, for some people the options of today did not exist.

[Tom_Wescott]

As Debs mentioned above, Pearly Poll was checked into the infirmary for 'alcoholism' at one time. I'm curious to know what their treatment regime was.

Also, I should point out that all these welfare systems and addiction treatments you guys refer to today do not keep people away from crime, drugs, and prostitution. There will always be those who choose that lifestyle.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Pat

I was just going to say exactly the same as GUT, We have a choice nowdays. In that time they put little hungry kids away for stealing food.

Or barely 20 years earlier sent them to Australia.

If you had no family or addiction or mental problems you were not going to get much help.

I'm not too sure that you got much help if you had an addiction. And "mental problems" when you read on Asylums, I'm not convinced you were any better off than on the streets.

I think they did try to help people but for some it was too late.

I'd amend that slightly and say I think they did try to help people but for some it was too little too late.

Not that they didn't try but they were under resourced and by the time they got help they were too far down the path.

Even if they tried to commit suicide it was illegal !

And that is why you will almost always find a finding of "suicide whilst of unsound mind".

A suicide risked their entire estate being forfeit to the crown.

[Paddy]

Social Services

I was just going to say exactly the same as GUT, We have a choice nowdays. In that time they put little hungry kids away for stealing food.

If you had no family or addiction or mental problems you were not going to get much help.
I have two missionerys in my family, one was in St George in the East, the other in South London. I think they did try to help people but for some it was too late.
Even if they tried to commit suicide it was illegal !

Debs thanks for the info re Pearly Poll...

Pat................................

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

As a general rule I don't have a lot of sympathy for criminals either, especially in a society with plenty of social security and or social services as most of us have today. But I always try to remember that for many of these East Enders there weren't a lot of options, if they couldn't get work and had no support. I also accept freely that some would say that I'm a softy.

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Tom




They did whatever it took legal or not. I'm not sure I blame them, I've got a lot of sympathy for them.

I have a limited amount of sympathy for criminals. It's important not to forget they hurt other people.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

Absolutely no accounting! But what's often overlooked is that for many of these women, prostitution was only one of the illegal activities they participated in to make money.

They did whatever it took legal or not. I'm not sure I blame them, I've got a lot of sympathy for them.

[Debra A]

A Mary Ann Connolly (an unfortunate) was murdered in South Wales around 1892. She was murdered by a soldier called Thomas Edwards of Usk, he was hung. He said it was revenge for something she had done to a friend of his, in the past.

Does anyone know if Pearly Poll stayed in Whitechapel area?

Pat.................................

The woman we all seem to agree is Pearly Poll ( b c 1850s) in the 88 Whitechapel Infirmary records shows up in the same records again 1893, Pat. Apparently after having a tracheotomy and spending 10 weeks in hospital. John Barnett, Joseph's brother appears in the admission book next to her on that occasion. The same woman is also in the Infirmary prior to 88 for alcoholism and rheumatism and resident at George St Spitalfields, listed as a prostitute.

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