Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Sam Flynn]

Killeen states that the wound to her heart was sufficient to cause death.

He didn't say it was sufficient to cause instant death, though. I'm not being picky, by the way: being stabbed in the heart would almost certainly be fatal, but it need not kill a person right away. Indeed, it's even possible to survive.

[curious]

Killeen does mention the abrasion to her scalp, Curious

didn't see that. Thanks, Jon.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm glad you say "looks like", Jon, because that doesn't indicate which order the wounds were inflicted - ALL the wounds were caused during life. That aside, I still struggle with the idea of his using two knives, one 37 times and the other only once.

Your struggle hasn't gone unnoticed Sam, although my post citing the problems with a single assailant and 2 knives surely has.

[Jon Guy]

I was thinking Abby was right with the strangulation, but there was no mention of that by Dr. Kileen. Nor was the bump on her head that someone mentions further down.

Killeen does mention the abrasion to her scalp, Curious

[Jon Guy]

I'm glad you say "looks like", Jon, because that doesn't indicate which order the wounds were inflicted - ALL the wounds were caused during life.

Killeen states that the wound to her heart was sufficient to cause death, so couple that with the his statement that she was alive when she received all her knife wounds, means the stab to the heart was last.

[Sam Flynn]

Looks like the long bladed knife to the heart was last:

Dr Killeen: His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger, and that all of them were caused during life.

I'm glad you say "looks like", Jon, because that doesn't indicate which order the wounds were inflicted - ALL the wounds were caused during life. That aside, I still struggle with the idea of his using two knives, one 37 times and the other only once.

[curious]

4 possibilities spring to mind, Curious

Strangled unconscious
Knocked out cold on the head
Hand over the mouth
She did scream

Thanks, Jon,
I was thinking Abby was right with the strangulation, but there was no mention of that by Dr. Kileen. Nor was the bump on her head that someone mentions further down.

I think I would discount the "hand over the mouth" option as I wonder how effectively a person could clamp a hand down tight enough to stop noises escaping while furiously stabbing. I think that would require two people, wouldn't it?

Could she have been passed out drunk on the landing? If so, does that eliminate an attack from a client who was angry at being cheated?

And if she did not scream, then there was likely some racket anyway -- even from the killer. Long ago, there was a post in which many seemed to think that the people in the apartment 12 feet away had heard something but done nothing.

I don't see how the murder could have been silent.

curious

[Harry D]

Just out of interest, how did Dr Killeen arrive at that conclusion?

[Jon Guy]

I don't, Jon. I think it was first.... or "first-ish" at any rate.

Looks like the long bladed knife to the heart was last:

Dr Killeen: His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger, and that all of them were caused during life.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

The only thing that bugs me is that the Dr Kileen makes no mention of strangulation.

Tabram did have an abrasion on her scalp. We don`t where on her head it was, but she may have had her head banged against a wall or floor

bingo.

that too. Ive often felt that the ripper may have knocked out his victims with a punch (some had bruises and abrasions on there face)and or banging there head against something and or strangling them, depending on the circumstances.

of course abrasions on the head could have also happened as he took them to the ground.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon/all
since there was evidence of strangulation-id go with option one.

Hi Abby

The only thing that bugs me is that the Dr Kileen makes no mention of strangulation.

Tabram did have an abrasion on her scalp. We don`t where on her head it was, but she may have had her head banged against a wall or floor

[Jon Guy]

Yes, Jon, I believe so. It's location is not obvious from the OS maps, but the 1881 census lists the Bousfields in Star Place between Star Street and Morris Street.

Thanks Gary, Stride and Tabram were living very close to each other.

[Abby Normal]

She is definitely the most likely non-canonical victim. The type of victim, the proximity in location, the proximity to the date of the Nichols murder, the relative rarity of murders back then, the ferocity of the attack (albeit in different MO), and the fact that this murder fits into the progression of a fledgling killer, all make her a likely victim.

As all her knife wounds were inflicted while she was alive, I wonder what the killer did to prevent her from screaming. I wonder if that lone pen-knife attack had something to do with that.

Hi Yom
She also displayed evidence of strangulation-so theres that too.

I have her equal probability with McKenzie as non c5 who was more than likely a ripper victim.

we have tabram-probably his first kill and still learning how to kill efficiently and working out MO. Bookended by McKenzie, probably his last, displaying mature MO and (partial) sig-maybe because of being interrupted and or other factor like being ill or too drunk.

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes, Jon, I believe so. It's location is not obvious from the OS maps, but the 1881 census lists the Bousfields in Star Place between Star Street and Morris Street.

It shows up nicely on the Ripper map posted above, at the south end of Star Steet.

[MrBarnett]

Is that close to Star Place, where Tabram once lived, Gary ?

Yes, Jon, I believe so. It's location is not obvious from the OS maps, but the 1881 census lists the Bousfields in Star Place between Star Street and Morris Street.