Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Sam Flynn]

With all due respect, I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating a fact. Look at the Nichols murder.

Respects reciprocated, but there's stabs and there's stabs. I see nothing materially similar in what happened to Nichols and Tabram.

[Tom_Wescott]

It wouldn't be mine, Dave/Tom. The way I see it, the Ripper was not a stabber in the least.

With all due respect, I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating a fact. Look at the Nichols murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

I think the timing, date wise, make Ms Tabram tempting to include, but two small stab wounds to the pubic area, are an uncomfortable fit with 39 frenzied stab wounds.

[Cogidubnus]

It wouldn't be mine, Dave/Tom. The way I see it, the Ripper was not a stabber in the least.

I think he might've been Gareth until, as Tom somewhat inelegantly puts it, he upgraded his hardware...

Cheers

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, that'd be my take...

Dave

It wouldn't be mine, Dave/Tom. The way I see it, the Ripper was not a stabber in the least.

[Cogidubnus]

Jack the Ripper was a stabber. Nichols was stabbed multiple times. The only difference is that after he stabbed, he ripped. He'd upgraded his hardware. That's the only significant difference between Nichols and Tabram. We see him upgrading his hardware against between Nichols and Chapman, so this fits in nicely with his burgeoning M.O.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes, that'd be my take...

Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Jack the Ripper was a stabber. Nichols was stabbed multiple times. The only difference is that after he stabbed, he ripped. He'd upgraded his hardware. That's the only significant difference between Nichols and Tabram. We see him upgrading his hardware against between Nichols and Chapman, so this fits in nicely with his burgeoning M.O.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

There are some very real differences in the killing methodologies, and some very striking features with some of the murders. They are not equal. They are not "alike", nor do they have any evidence that suggests we are dealing with a killer that not only stabs, or makes Torsos of his victims, or just cuts the throat once, or with intent mutilates the abdomens. In fact the first 2 Canonical murders are almost identical in all relevant and pertinent aspects. Including MO and Victimology.

Jack the Ripper didn't "evolve" from a stabber to someone who targeted internal abdominal organs in less than a month, he was a Ripper, and he only used 1 knife per murder. Maybe not the same one each time, but not a pen knife and a dagger. Nor did he "evolve" into a poisoner.

I'm undecided about Martha Tabram, but verge more towards her inclusion in the series...I know I'm not alone in this (vide for example, John Malcolm in "The Whitechapel Murders of 1888 Another Dead End?")...so, I'm not about to disagree quite so decisively as you do with tazemaster...

1) Can you provide concrete evidence that Jack didn't evolve, and

2) Is it not the case that there are similarities in the wounds in the groin area suffered by both Martha Tabram and Polly Nicholls?

Thanks

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Jack the Ripper didn't "evolve" from a stabber to someone who targeted internal abdominal organs in less than a month, he was a Ripper, and he only used 1 knife per murder.

Agreed, and we're not just talking about a stabber, but a multiple stabber, with thirty-something of those stabs focused on the upper body. For Tabram's killer, we're looking for a person radically different from the Ripper, who made long, deliberate cuts focused on the lower body.

[Michael W Richards]

There are some very real differences in the killing methodologies, and some very striking features with some of the murders. They are not equal. They are not "alike", nor do they have any evidence that suggests we are dealing with a killer that not only stabs, or makes Torsos of his victims, or just cuts the throat once, or with intent mutilates the abdomens. In fact the first 2 Canonical murders are almost identical in all relevant and pertinent aspects. Including MO and Victimology.

Jack the Ripper didn't "evolve" from a stabber to someone who targeted internal abdominal organs in less than a month, he was a Ripper, and he only used 1 knife per murder. Maybe not the same one each time, but not a pen knife and a dagger. Nor did he "evolve" into a poisoner.

[tazemaster]

I think Tabram was certainly a victim, if not the first victim. I doubt there were tons of homicidal maniacs active in the area at the time, and especially given the fact that she was stabbed to death so many times can't be a coincidence. Maybe the Ripper killed her for a personal reason, and then got a taste for it, and deciding to strike again. I don't think serial killers start out planning to kill a lot of people, they start with one, realize they like it, and never stop.

[Michael W Richards]

As you know, I believe the Ripper may have been the person who murdered Tabram, but not to the exclusion of considering other possibilities.

The argument you make for two people involved in Tabram's murder is compelling. One possible explanation for one person using two weapons is that the murderer was more interested in exercising control/power over his victim than killing them, maybe wanting to cause them a slow death. Hence a large number of smaller wounds. When that didn't result in death, he used a larger blade to end her life.

This explanation does not support the murderer being the Ripper, however.

A thought occurred to me reading your post, technically the second man with the larger knife could have been "Jack", and more plausibly than the multiple stabber. Could be the first taste of the kill I suppose.

The crux with this multiple stabber is that he was in a rage, and appears to have stabbed everywhere he could. Not just in places that would shorten the attack and lessen the need for the many superfluous stabs he made. That man isn't calmly going about his business, as I envision was the man who killed Annie Chapman. He posed as something he was not, and in early light in plain view of many windows, he takes time to cuts flaps off the victim to ease his access to what he wanted. Cold. That guy was focused and fearless..likely because he was dangerously nuts.

The 2 weapons, 1 recognizably larger, and the frenzied nature of the many stabs lends itself well to a very drunk soldier, carrying a penknife on him, gets insulted by a prostitute and reacts in a rage, who is found over the dying woman..still moving slightly, and he or the new arrival draws a large blade he is carrying, ends the womans suffering, and the new arrival gets his mate the hell out of there.

I think that people focus too much on the tag of murderer when looking at possible sources of violence from the East End at that time, there was anger, tension and frustration in that area, even moderately mean men can become murderers with enough perceived provocation and drink. We don't need to look hard to find men that could fit in that category in that neighborhood. Its why I easily see the possibilities of other murderers aside from the Jack fellow operating in the same area at the same time.

[etenguy]

Ok thanks Abby.
I readily admit your proposal of a man with two knives is quite feasible, it's just the caveat I have in him using a penknife if he had a dagger on him. I think that is the Achilles Heel, so to speak.

So, the sticking point for me is, that if he had a dagger, why would he use a clasp-knife/penknife about 38 times, before he used the one weapon that could finish the job.
I'm not saying he couldn't, it just requires some explanation.

As you know, I believe the Ripper may have been the person who murdered Tabram, but not to the exclusion of considering other possibilities.

The argument you make for two people involved in Tabram's murder is compelling. One possible explanation for one person using two weapons is that the murderer was more interested in exercising control/power over his victim than killing them, maybe wanting to cause them a slow death. Hence a large number of smaller wounds. When that didn't result in death, he used a larger blade to end her life.

This explanation does not support the murderer being the Ripper, however.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick
who was the man pulled in and where are those quotes from?

The character was charged with being drunk, so we do get his name:
John Benjamin Perryman, 40, hairdresser, living in Pennethorne-road, Peckham,

There are some reports in:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881116.html?printer=true

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881116.html?printer=true

https://casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18881115.html?printer=true

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881011.html?printer=true

If you click on Press Reports, in the left side column, then in the 'full text search' box write...
life preserver

You will get a few more.

[Abby Normal]

Ok thanks Abby.
I wasn't sure if you reject the soldier argument altogether, or just the 2-man theory.

I readily admit your proposal of a man with two knives is quite feasible, it's just the caveat I have in him using a penknife if he had a dagger on him. I think that is the Achilles Heel, so to speak.

However, that said, are you familiar with the suspect pulled in following the Kelly murder?
He was a well-dressed man, carrying a black bag, the bag was searched at the station....
"....on the bag's being examined it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."
Evening News.

So there's the dagger & clasp-knife together.
If it were true, it might be of interest to some, but other press reports give slightly different contents.

The Daily Telegraph reported:
"...and in it were found two pairs of scissors, a dagger and sheath, and a life preserver."

The Star.
"...it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."

Once again, we don't know who to believe.

So, the sticking point for me is, that if he had a dagger, why would he use a clasp-knife/penknife about 38 times, before he used the one weapon that could finish the job.
I'm not saying he couldn't, it just requires some explanation.

Hi Wick
who was the man pulled in and where are those quotes from?

re the knives. I think in the heat of the moment he have just used the smaller knife first since that's what he may have been accustomed to using before, especially if hes the same man who attacked Millwood an or Wilson before with a small knife.

also, since in terms of suspects for Tabrams murder, we have no one else except the soldier/s, Polls and the PCs confusion notwithstanding, I think the soldier(or someone dressed like one) is the most likely suspect other than an unsub of course, and could still have been the ripper.