Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Wickerman]

RE the soldiers: no not ignoring them.. I said your idea was certainly possible. Also yes the killer could be the single soldier. There’s nothing that negates the soldier from being the ripper.

Ok thanks Abby.
I wasn't sure if you reject the soldier argument altogether, or just the 2-man theory.

I readily admit your proposal of a man with two knives is quite feasible, it's just the caveat I have in him using a penknife if he had a dagger on him. I think that is the Achilles Heel, so to speak.

However, that said, are you familiar with the suspect pulled in following the Kelly murder?
He was a well-dressed man, carrying a black bag, the bag was searched at the station....
"....on the bag's being examined it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."
Evening News.

So there's the dagger & clasp-knife together.
If it were true, it might be of interest to some, but other press reports give slightly different contents.

The Daily Telegraph reported:
"...and in it were found two pairs of scissors, a dagger and sheath, and a life preserver."

The Star.
"...it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."

Once again, we don't know who to believe.

So, the sticking point for me is, that if he had a dagger, why would he use a clasp-knife/penknife about 38 times, before he used the one weapon that could finish the job.
I'm not saying he couldn't, it just requires some explanation.

[Wickerman]

My trouble with the two soldier killer theory [ i know these points have been mentioned before but here goes ] 1- We have to believe Poll that her and Martha where indeed drinking with two soldiers that night, yet we haven't any other witnesses, [ despite them frequenting several pubs ] corroborating this. 2- Pc Barrett said the soldier whom he saw was from the Grenadier guards and not the Coldstream, [ Poll ]. I believe the uniforms are similar, red tunics ? and either could have made a mistake but a difference none the less. Plus would there not be plenty of soldiers on leave that night with it being a Bank holiday. 3- Pc Barrett saw the soldier at 2am a full two hours since the couples separated. Also Pc Barrett said he saw a private hanging around for a chum. Yet if it was the same two soldiers that should have been the Corporal, since the private was the one who went off with Martha. 4- Now if i had just seen a copper on patrol near George yard who spoke to me, would i then go on to help a friend commit a murder with a weapon which could link me to the murder IE a dagger ? I very much doubt it. Even if he wanted to help his friend i would tell him to scarper rather than stand around thrusting a weapon into the victim who was almost certainly dead by then, and if he was the one using the pen knife as such, the idea that he would stab Martha 38 times whilst he knew a policeman was nearby is just daft.

Some of the latter points you raised Darryl seem to indicate you misunderstood the argument, they were never proposed.

[Michael W Richards]

My trouble with the two soldier killer theory [ i know these points have been mentioned before but here goes ] 1- We have to believe Poll that her and Martha where indeed drinking with two soldiers that night, yet we haven't any other witnesses, [ despite them frequenting several pubs ] corroborating this. 2- Pc Barrett said the soldier whom he saw was from the Grenadier guards and not the Coldstream, [ Poll ]. I believe the uniforms are similar, red tunics ? and either could have made a mistake but a difference none the less. Plus would there not be plenty of soldiers on leave that night with it being a Bank holiday. 3- Pc Barrett saw the soldier at 2am a full two hours since the couples separated. Also Pc Barrett said he saw a private hanging around for a chum. Yet if it was the same two soldiers that should have been the Corporal, since the private was the one who went off with Martha. 4- Now if i had just seen a copper on patrol near George yard who spoke to me, would i then go on to help a friend commit a murder with a weapon which could link me to the murder IE a dagger ? I very much doubt it. Even if he wanted to help his friend i would tell him to scarper rather than stand around thrusting a weapon into the victim who was almost certainly dead by then, and if he was the one using the pen knife as such, the idea that he would stab Martha 38 times whilst he knew a policeman was nearby is just daft.

I don't think you need to use either of the 2 stories Darryl to recognize the validity of the premise itself, we know that soldiers were in pairs...corroborated by these stories in part, and we know that soldiers were permitted to wear larger blades in public due to the Bank Holiday.

[Darryl Kenyon]

My trouble with the two soldier killer theory [ i know these points have been mentioned before but here goes ] 1- We have to believe Poll that her and Martha where indeed drinking with two soldiers that night, yet we haven't any other witnesses, [ despite them frequenting several pubs ] corroborating this. 2- Pc Barrett said the soldier whom he saw was from the Grenadier guards and not the Coldstream, [ Poll ]. I believe the uniforms are similar, red tunics ? and either could have made a mistake but a difference none the less. Plus would there not be plenty of soldiers on leave that night with it being a Bank holiday. 3- Pc Barrett saw the soldier at 2am a full two hours since the couples separated. Also Pc Barrett said he saw a private hanging around for a chum. Yet if it was the same two soldiers that should have been the Corporal, since the private was the one who went off with Martha. 4- Now if i had just seen a copper on patrol near George yard who spoke to me, would i then go on to help a friend commit a murder with a weapon which could link me to the murder IE a dagger ? I very much doubt it. Even if he wanted to help his friend i would tell him to scarper rather than stand around thrusting a weapon into the victim who was almost certainly dead by then, and if he was the one using the pen knife as such, the idea that he would stab Martha 38 times whilst he knew a policeman was nearby is just daft.

[Sam Flynn]

To me that would be a very reasonable explanation on why the skill set seen in those first 2 Canonical murders seems to vanish.

I don't propose we discuss this further on this thread, Michael, but I'd just observe that Eddowes' eviscerations were no less skillful (I use the term very loosely) than Chapman's.

[Michael W Richards]

I think using the Evolutionary Argument presumes leaps too large in too small an interval of time. No-one suggested that the killer of Martha had any skill or knowledge, despite the multiple stabs in some major organs, yet a month later he is assumed to have the skill set of a surgical student or better.

If you want to see evolution, look for the more gradual and logical progression from Polly to Annie. Street to backyard, greater privacy...although that could be argued since that area was looked down upon by many windows, some less stressful time to complete some desired actions, and the time to demonstrate what abilities he did have. I think this man could easily be someone who routinely butchers animals and does so quite speedily.

From the Star; "When Sergeant Thick learned that Isenschmid had told a number of women in Holloway that he was Leather Apron, a watch was put out for this promising suspect. Isenschmid was arrested on 12 September and taken to Holloway police station, where upon he was judged to be insane. He was sent first to the Islington workhouse, and later on 17 September, to the Bow infirmary asylum, Fairfield Road, Bow. On the 18 September, Inspector Abberline reported that, 'Although we are unable at present to procure any evidence to connect him with the murders, he appears to be the most likely person that has come under our notice to have committed the crimes'

To me that would be a very reasonable explanation on why the skill set seen in those first 2 Canonical murders seems to vanish.

[Abby Normal]

Doesn't your suspect wear a peaked cap?



There's no cause to see it as being aimed at anyone, it's about the knife, not a person. I was assuming you knew what whittling was. Never mind, nothing was meant by it.




So are we ignoring the soldiers, or could this single killer have been a soldier, just not two soldiers?

Hi wick
Yes my suspect does where a peaked cap, but what does it have to do with what we’re talking about?

RE the soldiers: no not ignoring them.. I said your idea was certainly possible. Also yes the killer could be the single soldier. There’s nothing that negates the soldier from being the ripper.

[Wickerman]

For me, one killer is more likely, not because the Tabram murder evidence points one way or the other in isolation, but when considered in a series, it becomes clearer. We have already provided plenty of reasons to consider Tabram to be a Ripper victim, with the only substantive objection being the way the murderer changed the way he used his knife.

It seems you lean towards the single killer because you have decided Tabram was killed by JtR?
Maybe it's easier to accept the soldiers theory if we reject Tabram as a Ripper killing. I just don't agree about there being "plenty of reasons" for having her as a Ripper victim.

[Wickerman]

HI Wick

I have no idea what your talking about here. please explain.

Doesn't your suspect wear a peaked cap?

what- are you laughing at your self? You've already stated you see the connection between the smaller knives between Wilson, Millwood and Tabram right?

There's no cause to see it as being aimed at anyone, it's about the knife, not a person. I was assuming you knew what whittling was. Never mind, nothing was meant by it.

as I said before perhaps he was accustomed to carrying around a smaller knife first, as I'm sure many men in the east end would do at the time. realized it wouldn't do the trick after Wilson and or millwood so got a bigger one.
had both with him when he attacked Tabram and in the heat of the moment started with the smaller one, then used the bigger one at the end.

So are we ignoring the soldiers, or could this single killer have been a soldier, just not two soldiers?

[Abby Normal]

Nothing. Both the scenario Mr Wickerman and the scenario you outline are equally plausible. Both raise questions for which we can speculate answers.

For me, one killer is more likely, not because the Tabram murder evidence points one way or the other in isolation, but when considered in a series, it becomes clearer. We have already provided plenty of reasons to consider Tabram to be a Ripper victim, with the only substantive objection being the way the murderer changed the way he used his knife.

It is well known that serial killers learn and refine their methods over time. One school of thought is that the change is too great in this instance to use as an explanation. Another is that it was an evolution, albeit a step change.

Thanks Eten
Totally agree and well said. Good post.
I also think wickers idea is certainly possible.

[etenguy]

as I said before perhaps he was accustomed to carrying around a smaller knife first, as I'm sure many men in the east end would do at the time. realized it wouldn't do the trick after Wilson and or millwood so got a bigger one.
had both with him when he attacked Tabram and in the heat of the moment started with the smaller one, then used the bigger one at the end.

whats so confusing or unreal (or funny?) about that?

Nothing. Both the scenario Mr Wickerman and the scenario you outline are equally plausible. Both raise questions for which we can speculate answers.

For me, one killer is more likely, not because the Tabram murder evidence points one way or the other in isolation, but when considered in a series, it becomes clearer. We have already provided plenty of reasons to consider Tabram to be a Ripper victim, with the only substantive objection being the way the murderer changed the way he used his knife.

It is well known that serial killers learn and refine their methods over time. One school of thought is that the change is too great in this instance to use as an explanation. Another is that it was an evolution, albeit a step change.

[Abby Normal]

Ah yes, but he hadn't graduated to the peaked cap yet then?



I wonder what he used his penknife for?
Maybe he was know as Jack the Whittler in those days?

HI Wick

Ah yes, but he hadn't graduated to the peaked cap yet then?

I have no idea what your talking about here. please explain.

I wonder what he used his penknife for?
Maybe he was know as Jack the Whittler in those days?

what- are you laughing at your self? You've already stated you see the connection between the smaller knives between Wilson, Millwood and Tabram right?

as I said before perhaps he was accustomed to carrying around a smaller knife first, as I'm sure many men in the east end would do at the time. realized it wouldn't do the trick after Wilson and or millwood so got a bigger one.
had both with him when he attacked Tabram and in the heat of the moment started with the smaller one, then used the bigger one at the end.

whats so confusing or unreal (or funny?) about that?

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not disagreeing with your points about the nature of the injuries, more the behaviour of the killers in Wickerman's scenario. Yes, soldiers can form unshakeable bonds and as such that would extend to keeping a vow of silence & covering for a comrade who has committed a serious crime. I can't see the natural human response (soldier or no) in that scenario to be to return to the scene of the crime and shank the victim for good measure, particularly as that grenadier had already been collared by one copper.

Impatient soldier waits for his friend, he takes longer than anticipated, and when he goes to look for him, maybe because he had seen coppers asking questions, and when he finds his friend he is in a panic standing over a dying woman. I'm not sure why you couldn't envision a final stab to end the suffering, prevent her surviving to testify against his friend, and perhaps prevent himself from being seen as an accessory.

[Harry D]

The East End Observer on August 18th wrote that Killeen stated that the blow he believed came from the larger weapon would have been enough to break a smaller knife as was used in the many other stab wounds. Its fairly definitive that 2 weapons were used, and that one left a dagger or bayonet sized wound. We know for a fact, forget Poll altogether if you want, that soldiers were out in pairs that night, that they were able to, due to the holiday, wear the exact type of weapon used for Marthas fatal stab, and that a PC gave a story that he came upon one not far from the murder site that was waiting for another off with a girl.

This doesn't have to be any heroic one of story Harry, its simply a fact that the bond between soldiers can be as strong as familial bonds...and what older brother wouldn't help his younger brother out of a serious jam, while at the same time performing a mercy style ending of suffering. Since he is also out with this man, he could also might be seen as a lookout and an accessory. It could also be self protection.

If the first man stabs her wildy, repeatedly, with a small weapon...he does this because he know the wounds are small but that the quantity of stabs will eventually overcome the inadequate size of the blade for committing murder. If that same man also has the dagger or bayonet on him, why would he bother exhausting himself with so many superfluous stabs. Rage created the large number of stabs, but I believe mercy and self preservation were the catalyst for the final one. Seems to me its the only specific, deliberate blow.

I'm not disagreeing with your points about the nature of the injuries, more the behaviour of the killers in Wickerman's scenario. Yes, soldiers can form unshakeable bonds and as such that would extend to keeping a vow of silence & covering for a comrade who has committed a serious crime. I can't see the natural human response (soldier or no) in that scenario to be to return to the scene of the crime and shank the victim for good measure, particularly as that grenadier had already been collared by one copper.

[Sam Flynn]

I believe mercy and self preservation were the catalyst for the final one. Seems to me its the only specific, deliberate blow.

It's always had the feel of a coup de grâce to me. It might not have been, of course.