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Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

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  • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    Moving the goalposts.

    Besides, I've always said Bury is the better of the named suspects. None of the others can be proven to have committed a Ripper-ish murder, and there are solid arguments for the lack of overkill/throat cutting. However, Alice McKenzie's murder still has more similarities to the series than Ellen Bury's does, and therefore it leaves serious question marks about him as the killer.
    Bit of a cop out. I still come back to the big gap from Jack's last murder to McKenzie though. I'll admit the case against Bury isn't water tight but I don't believe McKenzie's murder lessens the case against Bury. Also I didn't believe McKenzie's murder was a Ripper murder before I came to the conclusion that Bury was likely the Ripper.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

      Bit of a cop out. I still come back to the big gap from Jack's last murder to McKenzie though. I'll admit the case against Bury isn't water tight but I don't believe McKenzie's murder lessens the case against Bury. Also I didn't believe McKenzie's murder was a Ripper murder before I came to the conclusion that Bury was likely the Ripper.
      McKenzie was a prostitute, killed in Whitechapel, left carotid artery severed, abdomen mutilated, skirts raised, no suspects. Copycat killers are practically unheard of. And eight months is nothing, serial killers have gone years in-between murders. Back to you.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

        Moving the goalposts.

        Besides, I've always said Bury is the better of the named suspects. None of the others can be proven to have committed a Ripper-ish murder, and there are solid arguments for the lack of overkill/throat cutting. However, Alice McKenzie's murder still has more similarities to the series than Ellen Bury's does, and therefore it leaves serious question marks about him as the killer.
        The McKenzie murder has the superficial similarities we would expect to see in a copycat murder.

        The Ripper was a signature killer. Keppel and his team of criminologists studied the McKenzie case materials and determined that her murder could not be linked to the Ripper through signature analysis.

        In “The Bury ID” http://williambury.org/blog6/the-bury-id/ and in post 75 of the Bury website thread, I showed how closely the Ellen Bury murder can be mapped to the Ripper’s signature. Dr. Stuart Hamilton agrees that there is signature evidence linking Bury to the Whitechapel murders. Hamilton is a forensic pathologist who has provided expert testimony at trials on behalf of the Home Office.

        Don’t be distracted by the McKenzie murder.
        “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

        William Bury, Victorian Murderer
        http://www.williambury.org

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

          The McKenzie murder has the superficial similarities we would expect to see in a copycat murder.

          The Ripper was a signature killer. Keppel and his team of criminologists studied the McKenzie case materials and determined that her murder could not be linked to the Ripper through signature analysis.
          On the same basis, they would also rule out Ellen Bury, as she did not conform to the Ripper's signature characteristics. If you can argue that the lack of throat-cutting and overkill was situational in Ellen's case, the same goes for the de-escalation with Alice.

          Not that I think Keppel & co. are the authority on the Ripper murders. Classifying the Ripper as a picquerist, for example, is extremely debatable.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

            McKenzie was a prostitute, killed in Whitechapel, left carotid artery severed, abdomen mutilated, skirts raised, no suspects. Copycat killers are practically unheard of. And eight months is nothing, serial killers have gone years in-between murders. Back to you.
            skirts raised, (to expose the object of the rippers desire)

            thanks you!
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

              McKenzie was a prostitute, killed in Whitechapel, left carotid artery severed, abdomen mutilated, skirts raised, no suspects. Copycat killers are practically unheard of. And eight months is nothing, serial killers have gone years in-between murders. Back to you.
              When a serial killer has been killing every month or so an eight month gap is unheard of. As for copycat killers being unheard off if Bury isn't a copy cat killer he must be Jack.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                When a serial killer has been killing every month or so an eight month gap is unheard of.
                Except that's not true. Jeffrey Dahmer killed three victims two months apart at a time. It took him a whole year before he claimed the fourth. Dennis Rader murdered five victims in January & April 1974. It was a whole three years before his next one. There are many more. He may have been incarcerated, he may have been travelling, he may have stopped for personal reasons, who knows? We simply don't know the Ripper's movements/lifestyle to definitively state that McKenzie's murder was "too late".

                Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                As for copycat killers being unheard off if Bury isn't a copy cat killer he must be Jack.
                It looks like a half-hearted attempt to stage a Ripper murder. It could also be why Bury wrote the Ripper graffito at the back of the house. He was a drunkard and desperate. He realised that was a non-starter, so he stuck her in a box to weigh up his options, then went to the police with the suicide story. Not quite the actions of a notorious serial killer who was dodging her majesty's police left, right and centre.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                  Except that's not true. Jeffrey Dahmer killed three victims two months apart at a time. It took him a whole year before he claimed the fourth. Dennis Rader murdered five victims in January & April 1974. It was a whole three years before his next one. There are many more. He may have been incarcerated, he may have been travelling, he may have stopped for personal reasons, who knows? We simply don't know the Ripper's movements/lifestyle to definitively state that McKenzie's murder was "too late".



                  It looks like a half-hearted attempt to stage a Ripper murder. It could also be why Bury wrote the Ripper graffito at the back of the house. He was a drunkard and desperate. He realised that was a non-starter, so he stuck her in a box to weigh up his options, then went to the police with the suicide story. Not quite the actions of a notorious serial killer who was dodging her majesty's police left, right and centre.
                  If the case for McKenzie being a Ripper victim was as watertight as you make out McKenzie would be a Canon however it isn't and she isn't a Canon.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                    When a serial killer has been killing every month or so an eight month gap is unheard of. As for copycat killers being unheard off if Bury isn't a copy cat killer he must be Jack.
                    In these cases, the first 2 victims were killed within 2 weeks of each other. The presumed last victim was 2 months later. This was a blitzkrieg. And Bury is nowhere near the monster were looking for. He may be the pen knife stabber of Martha, who knows, but he is not an abdominal mutilator.
                    Michael Richards

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                      In these cases, the first 2 victims were killed within 2 weeks of each other. The presumed last victim was 2 months later. This was a blitzkrieg. And Bury is nowhere near the monster were looking for. He may be the pen knife stabber of Martha, who knows, but he is not an abdominal mutilator.
                      actually he is
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                        On the same basis, they would also rule out Ellen Bury, as she did not conform to the Ripper's signature characteristics. If you can argue that the lack of throat-cutting and overkill was situational in Ellen's case, the same goes for the de-escalation with Alice.

                        Not that I think Keppel & co. are the authority on the Ripper murders. Classifying the Ripper as a picquerist, for example, is extremely debatable.
                        Where has Keppel stated that he disagrees with my assessment?

                        It’s somewhat amazing that in just one day you have gone from not understanding the difference between MO and signature to having a full command of Keppel’s thought processes.

                        Again, Hamilton concurs that there is signature evidence linking Bury to the Ripper murders.

                        There is an obvious explanation for de-escalation at the Ellen Bury crime scene. The de-escalation at the McKenzie crime scene is inexplicable.

                        Keppel is an authority on serial homicide. He’s no doubt reviewed a huge number of cases, and he’s no doubt very familiar with cases involving picquerism. He’s well positioned to comment on the presence of picquerism in the Ripper series.


                        “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                        William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                        http://www.williambury.org

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

                          If the case for McKenzie being a Ripper victim was as watertight as you make out McKenzie would be a Canon however it isn't and she isn't a Canon.
                          Hi John

                          The canonical list originated with Dr Bond`s report on the Kelly murder in Nov 88
                          In July 89 Bond thought that McKenzie was killed by the same hand.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

                            Keppel is... no doubt very familiar with cases involving picquerism. He’s well positioned to comment on the presence of picquerism in the Ripper series.
                            On the contrary, Keppel accepts and adopts the asinine definition of piquerism that puts stabbing and cutting into the same category. It's largely because of this that he concludes that Martha of the 39 puncture wounds was killed by Jack of the long, slicing cuts.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              On the contrary, Keppel accepts and adopts the asinine definition of piquerism that puts stabbing and cutting into the same category. It's largely because of this that he concludes that Martha of the 39 puncture wounds was killed by Jack of the long, slicing cuts.
                              There was picqueristic stabbing, though, in the next murder as well. Nichols had two stabs to her genitals. The definition that Keppel is using is a standard one.
                              “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                              William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                              http://www.williambury.org

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

                                There was picqueristic stabbing, though, in the next murder as well. Nichols had two stabs to her genitals. The definition that Keppel is using is a standard one.
                                I know it's the standard definition, but it's a bad definition that blurs the boundaries between two very different actions - stabbing and cutting. Furthermore, it's a slovenly use of etymology: "piquer" is French for "to stab, prick, spear (etc)", and is never used to mean "to cut". Whilst there may have been one or two incidental/accidental stabs in some Ripper murders - but by no means all - they weren't remotely characterised by stabs, but by long cuts through the skin.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                                Comment

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