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Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Ok thanks Abby.
    I readily admit your proposal of a man with two knives is quite feasible, it's just the caveat I have in him using a penknife if he had a dagger on him. I think that is the Achilles Heel, so to speak.

    So, the sticking point for me is, that if he had a dagger, why would he use a clasp-knife/penknife about 38 times, before he used the one weapon that could finish the job.
    I'm not saying he couldn't, it just requires some explanation.
    As you know, I believe the Ripper may have been the person who murdered Tabram, but not to the exclusion of considering other possibilities.

    The argument you make for two people involved in Tabram's murder is compelling. One possible explanation for one person using two weapons is that the murderer was more interested in exercising control/power over his victim than killing them, maybe wanting to cause them a slow death. Hence a large number of smaller wounds. When that didn't result in death, he used a larger blade to end her life.

    This explanation does not support the murderer being the Ripper, however.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by etenguy View Post
      As you know, I believe the Ripper may have been the person who murdered Tabram, but not to the exclusion of considering other possibilities.

      The argument you make for two people involved in Tabram's murder is compelling. One possible explanation for one person using two weapons is that the murderer was more interested in exercising control/power over his victim than killing them, maybe wanting to cause them a slow death. Hence a large number of smaller wounds. When that didn't result in death, he used a larger blade to end her life.

      This explanation does not support the murderer being the Ripper, however.
      A thought occurred to me reading your post, technically the second man with the larger knife could have been "Jack", and more plausibly than the multiple stabber. Could be the first taste of the kill I suppose.

      The crux with this multiple stabber is that he was in a rage, and appears to have stabbed everywhere he could. Not just in places that would shorten the attack and lessen the need for the many superfluous stabs he made. That man isn't calmly going about his business, as I envision was the man who killed Annie Chapman. He posed as something he was not, and in early light in plain view of many windows, he takes time to cuts flaps off the victim to ease his access to what he wanted. Cold. That guy was focused and fearless..likely because he was dangerously nuts.

      The 2 weapons, 1 recognizably larger, and the frenzied nature of the many stabs lends itself well to a very drunk soldier, carrying a penknife on him, gets insulted by a prostitute and reacts in a rage, who is found over the dying woman..still moving slightly, and he or the new arrival draws a large blade he is carrying, ends the womans suffering, and the new arrival gets his mate the hell out of there.

      I think that people focus too much on the tag of murderer when looking at possible sources of violence from the East End at that time, there was anger, tension and frustration in that area, even moderately mean men can become murderers with enough perceived provocation and drink. We don't need to look hard to find men that could fit in that category in that neighborhood. Its why I easily see the possibilities of other murderers aside from the Jack fellow operating in the same area at the same time.
      Michael Richards

      Comment


      • I think Tabram was certainly a victim, if not the first victim. I doubt there were tons of homicidal maniacs active in the area at the time, and especially given the fact that she was stabbed to death so many times can't be a coincidence. Maybe the Ripper killed her for a personal reason, and then got a taste for it, and deciding to strike again. I don't think serial killers start out planning to kill a lot of people, they start with one, realize they like it, and never stop.

        Comment


        • There are some very real differences in the killing methodologies, and some very striking features with some of the murders. They are not equal. They are not "alike", nor do they have any evidence that suggests we are dealing with a killer that not only stabs, or makes Torsos of his victims, or just cuts the throat once, or with intent mutilates the abdomens. In fact the first 2 Canonical murders are almost identical in all relevant and pertinent aspects. Including MO and Victimology.

          Jack the Ripper didn't "evolve" from a stabber to someone who targeted internal abdominal organs in less than a month, he was a Ripper, and he only used 1 knife per murder. Maybe not the same one each time, but not a pen knife and a dagger. Nor did he "evolve" into a poisoner.
          Michael Richards

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            Jack the Ripper didn't "evolve" from a stabber to someone who targeted internal abdominal organs in less than a month, he was a Ripper, and he only used 1 knife per murder.
            Agreed, and we're not just talking about a stabber, but a multiple stabber, with thirty-something of those stabs focused on the upper body. For Tabram's killer, we're looking for a person radically different from the Ripper, who made long, deliberate cuts focused on the lower body.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
              There are some very real differences in the killing methodologies, and some very striking features with some of the murders. They are not equal. They are not "alike", nor do they have any evidence that suggests we are dealing with a killer that not only stabs, or makes Torsos of his victims, or just cuts the throat once, or with intent mutilates the abdomens. In fact the first 2 Canonical murders are almost identical in all relevant and pertinent aspects. Including MO and Victimology.

              Jack the Ripper didn't "evolve" from a stabber to someone who targeted internal abdominal organs in less than a month, he was a Ripper, and he only used 1 knife per murder. Maybe not the same one each time, but not a pen knife and a dagger. Nor did he "evolve" into a poisoner.
              I'm undecided about Martha Tabram, but verge more towards her inclusion in the series...I know I'm not alone in this (vide for example, John Malcolm in "The Whitechapel Murders of 1888 Another Dead End?")...so, I'm not about to disagree quite so decisively as you do with tazemaster...

              1) Can you provide concrete evidence that Jack didn't evolve, and

              2) Is it not the case that there are similarities in the wounds in the groin area suffered by both Martha Tabram and Polly Nicholls?

              Thanks

              Dave

              Comment


              • Jack the Ripper was a stabber. Nichols was stabbed multiple times. The only difference is that after he stabbed, he ripped. He'd upgraded his hardware. That's the only significant difference between Nichols and Tabram. We see him upgrading his hardware against between Nichols and Chapman, so this fits in nicely with his burgeoning M.O.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                  Jack the Ripper was a stabber. Nichols was stabbed multiple times. The only difference is that after he stabbed, he ripped. He'd upgraded his hardware. That's the only significant difference between Nichols and Tabram. We see him upgrading his hardware against between Nichols and Chapman, so this fits in nicely with his burgeoning M.O.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott
                  Yes, that'd be my take...

                  Dave

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post

                    Yes, that'd be my take...

                    Dave
                    It wouldn't be mine, Dave/Tom. The way I see it, the Ripper was not a stabber in the least.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                      It wouldn't be mine, Dave/Tom. The way I see it, the Ripper was not a stabber in the least.
                      I think he might've been Gareth until, as Tom somewhat inelegantly puts it, he upgraded his hardware...

                      Cheers

                      Dave

                      Comment


                      • I think the timing, date wise, make Ms Tabram tempting to include, but two small stab wounds to the pubic area, are an uncomfortable fit with 39 frenzied stab wounds.
                        dustymiller
                        aka drstrange

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                          It wouldn't be mine, Dave/Tom. The way I see it, the Ripper was not a stabber in the least.
                          With all due respect, I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating a fact. Look at the Nichols murder.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post

                            With all due respect, I wasn't expressing an opinion, I was stating a fact. Look at the Nichols murder.
                            Respects reciprocated, but there's stabs and there's stabs. I see nothing materially similar in what happened to Nichols and Tabram.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • I’ve always been struck by the similarity between the attack on Tabram and the one reportedly carried out by the blind lace seller near Spitalfields Market on the morning of the Chapman murder.

                              The victim was felled by a blow and repeatedly stabbed by her assailant, with a particular focus on her neck. This was in broad daylight, and if the crowd hadn’t overpowered the man, there may well have been another corpse in the morgue with contused wounds and multiple stabs.

                              Interestingly, a few years later Pearly Poll would go on to marry a blind seller of laces, a ‘vicious’ man with at least one conviction for assaulting a young girl. A man who, although blind, was recorded as being a wood carver, and since he was of no fixed abode, presumably carried the tools of his trade around with him.

                              He was later diagnosed with ‘mania’ (whatever that means) and spent his final years in mental asylums.

                              If the Spitalfields attacker was the man who became Poll’s husband and who may well have known her in 1888, he would surely be a person of interest.

                              But whether or no, it seems there was at least one man in the East End who presumably wasn’t the Ripper, but who was temperamentally capable of carrying out a similar attack to that on Tabram.

                              Comment


                              • What was evident in all the crimes ,was an intent to kill.I am of the opinion that a repeat killer might have had a reason to act differently,perhaps due to circumstances only he was aware of.So I see no reason why Tabram and Nichols couldn't have been killed by the same person.

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