Ripper Victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
That's a thorough description of the heart cavities ( pericardium), however blood can't ooze out over time as soon as death occurs ( the wound to the heart was alone enough to kill her) the blood starts to clot. Coagulation, so not much for the stance of the pool of blood and oozing out over time Sam.

We don't know how much blood there was, nor how much of an area it covered, Shelley. Besides, blood doesn't coagulate instantly and partly coagulated blood can still spread out and form a pool.

[Shelley]

Sam,
Points taken, in the region of a little dragging out....However i don't circulate and keep on dragging out stuff that is irrelevent.....but i myself wouldn't accept any personal name calling from a poster and that's my point Sam, it's past the point of playful into darn right insulting and disrespectful into non-regarding one as a human being, and anyone who cares about themself would bring that up and act right away. So i have no idea where you get this playfulness from....If i was to go around the board and call you a B*stard, i'd think you'd be none to pleased with me, i would also think that if i did that that you would in that case be reluctant to speak to me, and before you ever considered talking with me ever again expect an apology....I recall you got upset with one of my colourful language descriptons, not an outright personal slander in name calling of one that does not represent a human in any case, i think you would have something to say to that, besides i have never called anyone a B*stard and wouldn't do so. Nor any other personal remarks of indignation.

Putting the above aside..................

Blood does start coagulating once death occurs, ok messages are sent, and it is a process, that takes a little time to the event of solidifying blood in the body on a whole, but it will be little blood that oozes and not enough to create a pool, some blood stays congealed in the body itself, and yes congealed blood can end up in the pool, which would be less of the oozing of blood you describe. I am aware also that even after death and depending on the nature that caused death and when ( timing), that if a slip of a knife entered the body, a little spurt of blood can occur as well. From your description of the heart cavities in an earlier post, all this indicates is that the heart wasn't struck first in the stabbings, but also the pool of blood is evident in the heart not being struck first.

[Sam Flynn]

but i myself wouldn't accept any personal name calling from a poster and that's my point Sam, it's past the point of playful into darn right insulting and disrespectful into non-regarding one as a human being, and anyone who cares about themself would bring that up and act right away. So i have no idea where you get this playfulness from....

I can only speak for myself. I simply said that I might take a playful pop at Ben on occasion, Shelley - which is perfectly true. The matter of personal name-calling had nothing to do with what I posted about Shawcross/Eddowes, I trust.

Anyhow, back to Tabram.

[Jeff Leahy]

Where does Swanson record this throat-Cutting on Tabram Pirate jack?
Also, about the bodice ( victorian corset) Tabram is not listed as having one, where is it that it's written by designers as, an integral design to the dress? I've never heard of this anywhere, corsets were different and worn under the dress it's self.....A bustle was an integral design of most dresses, still some were separated and sewn on.

Swanson wrote: "Dr.Keeling of 68 Brick Lane was called, and examined the body and found thirty nine wounds on body, neck, and private part with a knife or dagger."

There is little information on what Tabram was actually wearing: Scotland yard Investigates: Green Skirt,Brown PettiCoat, long Black Jacket, brown Sockings, side spring boots and a black bonnet.

However unless you believe Martha was walking around bear breasted, its probably not a complete list.

Jon Ogan adds: Dark Dress, Green Skirt, brown petticoat, long black jacket, brown sockings side sprung boots and black bonnet....

The piont I am simply making however is that the blows to Martha were made through clothing (Of some description, and as a bag lady of the street probably tough) where as, the other victims were not...Jack only attacked soft flesh...hence SLASH

If Jack did kill Martha he would have had to go through at least two layers of clothing..probably more but not listed...there fore STABBING would have made more practical sense than SLASHING...until he lifted the skirt and could .....wait for it...SLASH

Pirate

PS and no I havnt Got my corsets mixed up with my bussels....Jon Ogan says Dark Dress, and long black coat...at least two layers. A dress imply's a bodice at top and skirt section below...XX

[Shelley]

Pirate Jack,

Yes, but the Note on Marthas wounds does not say throat-cut, you may argue a partial list for Martha Tabram and what she was wearing, but in the case of Eddowes, she too was on the streets dressed with her belongings, yet with the Victims Eddowes & Chapman were listed as having a bodice ( victorian corset), so the authorities made a note of another victims clothing and mentioned the upper dress, Martha may or may not have had a corset on, she may have just had a shirt on for all we know.

[Shelley]

I can only speak for myself. I simply said that I might take a playful pop at Ben on occasion, Shelley - which is perfectly true. The matter of personal name-calling had nothing to do with what I posted about Shawcross/Eddowes, I trust.

Anyhow, back to Tabram.

Sam,
No i wasn't reffering to you.....Nor are you the poster that resulted into disrespectful name calling.....And he is well aware of what he has done & it's over stepping the mark with anyone on these boards.

[Sam Flynn]

If Jack did kill Martha he would have had to go through at least two layers of clothing..

But, Jeff - he lifted up her skirts so that the lower half of her body was found exposed to the air. But not a hint of a slash, anywhere. Just 38 stabs. To the TOP half of her body.

[Supe]

Lordy, there would seem no end to this debate. I put my thoughts on the line in an August 2008 Ripperologist article and still stand be them. But for all the verbiage here it really comes down to the wounds. If you think there is any similarity between the frenzied flailing away at Martha and the rather professional throat-cutting and eviscerating of Polly, then you can well believe they done by the same hand. I don't; nor do I believe that short of a crash course from the SAS you could learn the technique used on Polly in three scant weeks.

My opinion, based on a good deal of research and experience..

Don.

[Chava]

Not that I'm going to discount all your years of knowledge and experience, Don. But where did he learn that technique? And why do you think it would take so long for him to learn it? A casual hour or two spent watching a kosher butcher killing an animal would teach him. The technique in question is known as shechita and it's been practiced for a few thousand years. We are under an obligation to cause the animals we eat as little pain as possible. So the butcher cuts the animal's throat with a knife of extreme sharpness that is inspected over and over again to make sure it has no nicks in it or broken edges that might catch and so hurt the animal. The butcher performs thusly:

Shechita is performed by a highly trained shochet. The procedure consists of a rapid and expert transverse incision with an instrument of surgical sharpness (a chalaf), which severs the major structures and vessels at the neck. This causes an instant drop in blood pressure in the brain and immediately results in the irreversible cessation of consciousness. Thus, shechita renders the animal insensible to pain, dispatches and exsanguinates in a swift action, and fulfils all the requirements of humaneness and compassion.

Does this sound familiar? How many kosher abbatoirs were there in the East End at that time? I'll bet there were quite a few. They probably wouldn't notice if someone was hanging around what with all the other stuff going on. So no SAS crash course necessary...

[Shelley]

One thing about the Kosher abbatoir, they would frighten the animal first to get the blood pumping quicker, when the throat was cut of the animal lots of blood poured out from the animals neck, they needed to drain all the blood from the animal, as with Jewish law no consuming of any blood was allowed, eggs were always broken open, any blood spots in the sack/membrane of the egg were removed. Jews never did eat boiled eggs. This had been practised for thousands of years, also recorded in the bible. A character from the bible who was Jewish didn't ensure blood draining of his meat, for this God punished him by ' cutting him off ' from the word of The Lord God. Also i wonder if they did crash courses in the Kosher region rather than the SAS for getting past a membrane in a human abdomin to obtain a womb! Also would this Kosher butcher also teach how an animal that wears clothing that stabbing isn't going to do the trick, so he finds out from the Kosher butcher how to mutilate underneath clothing? Amazing all in a space of 3 & 4 weeks!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Swanson wrote: "Dr.Keeling of 68 Brick Lane was called, and examined the body and found thirty nine wounds on body, neck, and private part with a knife or dagger."

Yes, wounds to the neck and that is something completely different.
A cut throat is a very specific type of injury and would have been mentioned by either Swanson, Killeen or both as a contrast to the puncture wounds.
Tabram was stabbed all over the torso and private parts, including the neck. Her throat wasn't cut.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Lordy, there would seem no end to this debate. I put my thoughts on the line in an August 2008 Ripperologist article and still stand be them. But for all the verbiage here it really comes down to the wounds. If you think there is any similarity between the frenzied flailing away at Martha and the rather professional throat-cutting and eviscerating of Polly, then you can well believe they done by the same hand. I don't; nor do I believe that short of a crash course from the SAS you could learn the technique used on Polly in three scant weeks.

My opinion, based on a good deal of research and experience..

Don.

And as usual, based on a fair amount of common sense.

All the best

[Jeff Leahy]

But, Jeff - he lifted up her skirts so that the lower half of her body was found exposed to the air. But not a hint of a slash, anywhere. Just 38 stabs. To the TOP half of her body.

I’m sorry Sam I must disagree with you hear. I gather this is a conversation that you had on another thread with Dan Norder, and wait for it, I actually agree with Dan.

Martha’s cuts, due to their location, were almost certainly through her clothing. Yet we have a 3” long 1” deep cut to the abdomen…I’m suggesting that this cut was the last cut, the killer raising the skirt to get at the softer flesh and thus giving the appearance of a different knife because he SLASHED.

We thus have the perfect attack to fit between Millwood and Nichols.

Millwood being stabbed through the clothing with a Clasp knife while Nichols was only SlASHED to throat her skirts raised and SLASHED to the abdomen.

Tabram sits neatly in the middle as she was both STABBED and SLASHED even if the signs of slashing are small we still have a mixture or an in between attack.

Pirate

[harry]

Professional throat cutting and evisceration of Polly,or of any of the other victims,is not in accordance with what some of the medical people stated.As Chava says,it doesn't take long to learn how to make two clean slashes across the throat,and I fail to see any professionalism in the mutulations to the bodies.

[Jeff Leahy]

Yes, wounds to the neck and that is something completely different.
A cut throat is a very specific type of injury and would have been mentioned by either Swanson, Killeen or both as a contrast to the puncture wounds.
Tabram was stabbed all over the torso and private parts, including the neck. Her throat wasn't cut.

All the best

Well it doesn’t say stab or cut to the back of the neck. And as the throat is the area to the front of the neck between the head and the body I was concluding the possibility that the throat was affected by such an action…

However Technically you are correct, I lay my self at your feet and publicly apologise for my over colourful language and lapsidaisical use of the words.

However I still hold the right to slap you over the head with a wet kipper next time we meet for being a smarty-pants.

Pirate