Ripper Victim?

[Ben]

And so are many other serial killers, Ben - and this trait of an experimental character is exactly what makes them so unlike the Ripper! He ALWAYS stuck to his key elements

But that statement can have no value, Fish, unless we know who "he" is.

You cannot make assertions as to what the ripper "ALWAYS" did on the basis of the victims you've already excluded, and with the greatest respect here, you're rather spoiling some of the good and valid contributions you've made elsewhere on this topic. If the ripper killed Tabram, there are certain things he didn't "always" do. Not a huge revelation, since we know he didn't "always" extract organs or "always" slash faces.

and therefore only other killers who stuck to THEIR significant key elements make good comparisons to the Ripper

Well, no, because there again, it would mean making unwarranted presuppositions as to how "consistent" the killer was based on the ones we've already excluded. It just doesn't work like that. It's too much of a circular argument.

[Sam Flynn]

Robert Keppel, who knows more about serial killers than all of us here, and whose background and knowledge certainly trumps all of ours

... not on ALL subjects, Ben. He is certainly not a "cut-and-stab-ologist", and his opinions on such matters can in no way be taken to represent objective truths.

[Ben]

He has some psychobabble qualifications and experience, but that doesn't automatically make him a competent analyst, let alone an "expert" with valid views on most things under the sun.

I wouldn't invalidate his qualifications by calling them "psychobabble", Gareth. Others may not agree with that assessment. Whatever the nature of his qualifications, his actual background and experience has exposed him to a far greater knowledge on serial crime and its perpetrators than most of us here can ever possess. I'm not saying that automatically makes him right, but experience certainly counts for something.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Whatever the nature of his qualifications, his actual background and experience has exposed him to a far greater knowledge on serial crime and its perpetrators than most of us here can ever possess.

True, Ben, albeit within the strict confines of his experience of certain crimes. However, that does not make him a psychologist nor a philosopher. Neither does it make his lumping-together of the fundamentally different acts of stabbing and cutting anything different than the example of woolly thinking that it most certainly is.

[Ben]

I'd respectfully beg to differ, Gareth. Where you see "woolly thinking", I see the application of extensive experience in the field of serial crime.

Best,

Ben

[Jeff Leahy]

To be honest Ben I have less trust in criminal experts than you. The Ripper murders must be balanced in their historical context. I’d prefer to stay with people who understand the intricacies of the case.

However I see no evidence that Sam has given the Tabram murder the serious consideration he gave to the Eddowes murder.

As has been seen it is clearly far more complex.

I’d like to see a more serious reconstruction of the attack and exactitude of the inflicted blows/Stabs/Slashes.

But then we have NO autopsy or safe ground to fall back on

Pirate

[Ben]

To be honest Ben I have less trust in criminal experts than you. The Ripper murders must be balanced in their historical context.

Fair enough, Jeff, but I'd argue that historical context doesn't apply much here, unless anyone seriousy wants to argue that there was something about the Victorian era that made serial killers want to be more consistent!

Ben

[Chava]

To be honest Ben I have less trust in criminal experts than you. The Ripper murders must be balanced in their historical context. I’d prefer to stay with people who understand the intricacies of the case.

However I see no evidence that Sam has given the Tabram murder the serious consideration he gave to the Eddowes murder.

As has been seen it is clearly far more complex.

I’d like to see a more serious reconstruction of the attack and exactitude of the inflicted blows/Stabs/Slashes.

But then we have NO autopsy or safe ground to fall back on

Pirate

I'd like us to take this killing more seriously as well. Many of you are engaging in the Casebook version of trench warfare at the moment, and I don't see how it helps. Tabram may or may not have been a Ripper victim and I don't think any of us have enough knowledge to declare definitively one way or another. We've covered all the possibilities of stab vs rip. We've had nice little skirmishes labelled 'Sutcliffe' or 'Kurten'. But the fact remains that, if she is a Ripper victim, she was likely the first one, and we can't dismiss her out-of-hand even though the wounding and cause of death are somewhat different. If she had been smothered to death, or bludgeoned to death, I would absolutely discount her. But she was killed with a knife, albeit in a different way.

For years and years I believed that the first killing was Polly Nicholls. Now I'm not sure if I think that or not. Tabram went up that court with her soldier a lot earlier than she was killed. She could well have taken other tricks up there, and one turned bad on her. I'm going to keep an open mind on Tabram.

[adrian]

It might be of immense interest to know that the current issue of the Whitechapel Society Journal is in fact a Martha Tabram special.

Well worth getting hold of.

ADRIAN.
(Editor: Whitechapel Society Journal)

[Malcolm X]

For years and years I believed that the first killing was Polly Nicholls. Now I'm not sure if I think that or not. Tabram went up that court with her soldier a lot earlier than she was killed. She could well have taken other tricks up there, and one turned bad on her. I'm going to keep an open mind on Tabram.

Tabram doesn't look like like a ripper kill...at all.... i would rule her out....a small pocket knife and then a large dagger/ bayonett, not like the ripper at all.

[adrian]

Moreover, I will expand on that last post.

In the February edition of the Whitechapel Society Journal we have an exclusive interview with the writer and researcher Jon Ogan who famously published a group of articles almost twenty years ago questioning the evidence - especially the medical evidence - and the prevailing notion that Martha was not a Ripper victim.

These famous articles have had a tremendous impact on how we see this particular murder, whether you agree or disagree with his view or not.

In our interview with Jon in this current edition of the Whitechapel Society Journal he is able to expand and build upon his original articles due to some detailed and searching questions from us.

ADRIAN.
(Editor: Whitechapel Society Journal)

[adrian]

More details?

visit: www.whitechapelsociety.com

ADRIAN.
(Editor: Whitechapel Society Journal).

[Sam Flynn]

Tabram may or may not have been a Ripper victim... If she had been smothered to death, or bludgeoned to death, I would absolutely discount her. But she was killed with a knife, albeit in a different way.

I'd argue that she was killed in a radically different way. I don't entirely dismiss Tabram as a possible Ripper victim - however I say that in full awareness that the transition from Tabram to Nichols represents a significant, and rapid, change in the killer's behaviour. In acknowledging that, I see no reason to fight the corner of various soi-disant experts, nor to pretend that the very real gulf between the two murders doesn't exist.

(Good post, by the way, Chava.)

[Chava]

Adrian, thanks for the information. But I don't live in the UK, so I don't think I can get my hands on the Journal. Will Jon Ogan post his article anywhere on the 'net? Or is it somewhere on that website? (I looked and couldn't find it.)

[Malcolm X]

I'd argue that she was killed in a radically different way. I don't entirely dismiss Tabram as a possible Ripper victim - however I say that in full awareness that the transition from Tabram to Nichols represents a significant, and rapid, change in the killer's behaviour. In acknowledging that, I see no reason to fight the corner of various soi-disant experts, nor to pretend that the very real gulf between the two murders doesn't exist.

(Good post, by the way, Chava.)

yes Sam, this looks like another killer... a killer in a rage, he seriously lost his cool that's for sure.