Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

Anyone who believes that a multpile stab murder where the perpetrator has perforated the victim with 39 wounds is not a result of frenzy definitely needs to do a reality check, and most certainly read up on their criminology.
An endless row of multiple stab murder cases excists and all of them has to my knowledge been a result of frenzy.
It is not even a matter of debate but an escertained fact.

This i wholeheartedly agree with. At the same time it is ridiculos to say that stabbing and slashing/cutting are one and the same, with frames of mind at work on a victim.
I just stumbled on this post, as i was reading through about an older post of mine.

[Shelley]

You don't "need" to stab at all, Ben - you can push the tip of the blade in, with either delicate or moderate pressure. Stabbing is entirely optional, and arguably superfluous.

Besides, there's more to "ripping" ("slashing", strictly speaking, is making glancing contact by swishing the blade) than the initial impact - what happens subsequently counts, too. You emphatically don't need a "punching" action in order to cut long wounds in the flesh - it just wouldn't work - it requires controlled pressure in an horizontal direction, over a distance. Stabbing is an explosive act, where all the pressure is concentrated in one vertical thump or, in the case of Tabram, 38 (or 39) vertical thumps.

Stabbing and ripping are EMPHATICALLY different actions.

This is very well put Sam, the mind & emotion is working different as with stabbing to cutting/slashing. And it is common sense along with realism...Not an outward stab in the dark! Sorry i couldn't resist it

[Shelley]

Could he have broke the blade of the bigger weapon when he stabbed her sternum?

CLK,
This is possible & a few seem to think so as well.

[CLK]

Could he have broke the blade of the bigger weapon when he stabbed her sternum?

[Ben]

My main objection Ben is that we would need some miraculous metamorphosis IMHO

Ah, but that's just what we don't need, Mike.

All we need is a rudimentary knowledge of criminal history.

the killer of Martha cannot be said to have shown any skill or knowledge of killing itself... let alone anatomy.

Couldn't agree more, but the same can be said of a great many first murders that later form part of a "serial", as we know them.

How does a little league player concoct a major league routine in 3 weeks?

Simply by learning from experience. It would be only a major feat if the Nichols murder was anything amazingly impressive or complicated, but it really isn't as far as I'm concerned. As for the police force being especially "sophisticated and mobilized", nah. They may have done the best they could, but please remember that policing in general was in its relative infancy at that time, and they had no experience whatsoever in serial crime. The chances of a serial killer escaping undetected was reasonably high for this, and many other reasons. Serial killers go undetected even today, even with investigative forces that really ARE sophisticated.

Best regards,
Ben

Nor do I, Mike, but what I do see is a very viable candidate for the early phase of a murderous serial that was likely to escalate into abdominal mutilation ot something equally "specialized" as the offender gained more experience, discovering his individual preferences as he progressed and sticking with them accordingly.

Best regards,
Ben

My main objection Ben is that we would need some miraculous metamorphosis IMHO....the killer of Martha cannot be said to have shown any skill or knowledge of killing itself... let alone anatomy.

The precise method that is likely used next with Polly may well be the very same one that is used with Kate, and Annie in between. And all share the attack without obvious struggle, throats severely cut, abdominally mutilated and I believe importantly,...acts committed in public that make their killer very likely the same guy.

How does a little league player concoct a major league routine in 3 weeks? He baffles the entire police force in London with a greatly accelerated police presence and active door to door searches going on...thats major league.

He is either so lucky or so skilled at what he does that he embarrasses the most sophisticated and mobilized police force in the world at the time I would imagine. The largest manhunt ever...and he was one Artful Dodger. Supposedly 5 times in less than one square mile.

Cheers Ben

[Ben]

I believe that loosely but accurately assembles the knowns....and I dont see an abdominal mutilator there. I do see one in 3 weeks time.

Nor do I, Mike, but what I do see is a very viable candidate for the early phase of a murderous serial that was likely to escalate into abdominal mutilation ot something equally "specialized" as the offender gained more experience, discovering his individual preferences as he progressed and sticking with them accordingly.

Best regards,
Ben

On your very last retort Ben, I meant to add "abdominal" but neglected to due to my "frenzied" typing. But you knew that anyway old chum....

I dont mean to portray that man as some genius killer at all, I just think there was some semblance of control.. and yes...even some "skills", exhibited by the fellow who I believe killed the three abdominally mutilated Canonical victims....at least the first two. I dont see that either is present in Marthas murder, and there is after all evidence that more than one knife was used. Like in Marys case.. where larger blades may have been used to carve parts of her like a turkey....god rest her soul.

In Marthas evidence I see that she had a military client she took towards George Yard near midnight....that she is found hours later in the same yard, possibly meaning she had "worked" there since the first military client of the night. A second military man is seen near the yard waiting for a chum a few hours after the first client.

She is stabbed to death 39 times with obvious rage, once with a larger instrument, and she has no money on her person....categorizing her as a possible robbery/positively murder...like the ones attempted twice that spring.

I believe that loosely but accurately assembles the knowns....and I dont see an abdominal mutilator there. I do see one in 3 weeks time.

Best regards as always Ben.

[Sam Flynn]

Rhetorical, Mike... purely rhetorical

[The Good Michael]

why did God make me this way?!!

I see you've joined the ranks of the believers. Oh well, that does often happen as age advances .

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

I wouldn't want to get between you and your grow-bags (??? what are they???)

My grow-bags are large, plastic sacks filled with compost... why did God make me this way?!!

[Chava]

I wouldn't want to get between you and your grow-bags (??? what are they???)

But actually it's not a bad idea! At least you'd find out how likely it is that you'd hit such a disparate wounding pattern! And also how long it took.

[Sam Flynn]

OK. How does he inflict those wounds, Gareth?

With a knife, dear - erm! - Chava, dear Chava, dear Chava. With a knife... dear Chava, dear Chava with a knife (or possibly a bayonet).

Seriously, I have three grow-bags in the back garden, and I'm tempted to have a go at them tomorrow - were it not for the wrath that such vandalism might incur. My life's stressful enough as it is

[Chava]

Why should that be the case? Fat can flatten out to a large extent when a body is supine, and - flattened fat or not - Tabram would still have presented (easily) well over 100 square inches of "non-curved" target for a blade of 0.5 square inches to land upon.

OK. How does he inflict those wounds, Gareth? That's a big lady. I am assuming he doesn't kind of perch on her, so he's on one side or the other during his frenzy. Or he's kneeling between her legs. Don't forget he is either right-handed or left-handed. So the knife will be on one side or the other. You'd expect a concentration of stabs in that area. But he seems fairly even-handed. In fact, I wonder if he switched hands during his frenzy to get a better shot at the somewhat neglected side. He manages to hit all areas of the upper body. How do we explain that? Maybe he thought (during his frenzy) I've had enough of stabbing her liver. Now I'm going for the stomach and the left lung!' Maybe he thought (during his frenzy) 'I'm fed-up in this position, I think I'll stretch my legs and move over.'

[Ben]

Im sorry Ben, but saying a Unicorn is a horse doesnt make it correct

Nor does insisting that Jack falls into the "Unicorn" category, Mike!

he wanted Annies abdominal organs and thats the reason its suggested he kills her in the first place and in the yard this time

An errant conclusion, in my view, based on Victorian inexperience in serial crime, which led to an even more errant conclusion on the part of the coroner, which was then refuted by the British Medical Journal. And while Llewellyn may have observed that the killer was interrupted, he was an expert in his own field, not in criminal investigation (a category which naturally encompasses the likelihood of the killer being interrupted).

Suggesting that these three murders have anything in common with the stabbing/robbery deaths isnt really sound analysis

It really, really is.

Because what we'd be doing in such a scenario is embracing actual experience from other cases, and applying genuine insight into what serial killers are and are not capable of.

I wont break the horn off the Unicorn just because you or anyone else sees it as merely a work horse.

Okay, but don't rule out the possibility of the killer having committed more murders than the three you favour purely on the grounds that you've decided from the outset that the killer must be an interesting, noteworthy anomale that sets him apart from other serial killers.

You mentioned one trait of one murderer that year that was remarkable....a man that mutilates women postmortem out in public. Using that "fact" as your barometer, youre down to 4 Canonical victims, not up to 6 or more.

No, that criteria would encompass more than 4 victims, "canonical" or otherwise.

Best regards,
Ben