Ripper Victim?

[Cap'n Jack]

Tom, I told you about the stays three years ago, but you dismissed it then, as everyone else did. Now you like the stays?
Anyways as I also told you three years ago the dispossesed women of Whitechapel used to sleep in the hundreds of hay and straw carts that were parked up in every street ready for the markets next morning. They didn't need a bed for the night.
You clutch at straws.
This is the way you work isn't it? Dismissing relevant new research at the time and then claiming it as your own some years later.
I'd like to cut your stays and catapult you onto the surface of a hot planet.

[Tom_Wescott]

So this is what you meant when you said my comment about the Sept. 17th letter would 'bite me in the arse'? You're going to follow me around the boards harrassing me and accusing me (of all things!) of plagurising you? Be a good boy and go do some of your own research instead of trying to tack your name on to mine, or RJ's, or Stewarts, ad infinitum.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Still hiding behind other peoples skirts Tom?

Pirate

[Sam Flynn]

If she hadn't done anything to anyone, where is the frenzy I keep hearing about, and don't believe in...

... indeed, Chava, he eased his knife in like a gardener dibbing seedlings into a tray of compost. And did so 39 times.

[Chava]

... indeed, Chava, he eased his knife in like a gardener dibbing seedlings into a tray of compost. And did so 39 times.

And your description of what the Ripper did to Kelly? Was that a frenzy? Just because the woman is stabbed rather than taken apart you attribute the murder to a 'frenzy'. I'm going back to the same argument I used earlier and which you sidestepped. What the Ripper did to Kelly was as extreme in its way as what her murderer did to Tabram. There is no evidence that he was out of control at any point in that event, and there is no evidence beyond the number of stabs that Tabram's murderer was out of control. If she had been stabbed 39 times, with no evidence whatsoever of his having disarranged her clothing or perhaps positioned her body, I would agree that it was a frenzied attack. But there is too much that seems to me premeditated about what was done to Tabram for that to be a frenzy.

[harry]

Chava,
No ,I wouldn't be surprised at the conditions,good or bad,there were plenty of both in every large city in England.It is the endless assumptions that it(the landing) would have been bad,and thatMartha had to be whoreing,with no considerations that it could have been otherwise.At two o'clock in the morning,after a hard night drinking,how do you feel she would have felt physically.
I do agree with you though,that no frenzy was evident.
Pirate,
bizarre conditions may have been a feature of that summer,but the bank holiday monday,and the sunday preceeding it,by what I have read,were warm and dry.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Anyone who believes that a multpile stab murder where the perpetrator has perforated the victim with 39 wounds is not a result of frenzy definitely needs to do a reality check, and most certainly read up on their criminology.
An endless row of multiple stab murder cases excists and all of them has to my knowledge been a result of frenzy.
It is not even a matter of debate but an escertained fact.

[Fisherman]

Tom writes:

"What about her torn clothes? I already addressed that."

Ah - so HE tore the clothing open over her chest, after SHE had lain down and lifted the skirts...? This IS getting interesting.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Glenn writes:

"An endless row of multiple stab murder cases excists and all of them has to my knowledge been a result of frenzy."

Well... almost all of them, at least. I actually provided information of a very strange Swedish case some months ago, where a guy stabbed a woman 39 times last year, killing her. It was shown afterwards that he had planned the murder in detail together with his girlfriend - stabs and all - and it was all filmed by the couple as it went down. Each stab was premeditated!

Of course, Glenn, I am not suggesting it in this case - the case I provided is a very weird one (I think it included elements of satanism), and it will not have any real relevance here. Still, I thought I would point to the fact that no matter how we try to arrange the world in a neat pattern, something will always surface to force us to think twice about it.

As for the case brought forward about Tabram that no traces of a frenzy were evident, I think that one must keep in mind that 39 stabs, distributed over a large area of the trunk of somebody, actually IS a very good indication of a frenzy.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I actually provided information of a very strange Swedish case some months ago, where a guy stabbed a woman 39 times last year, killing her. It was shown afterwards that he had planned the murder in detail together with his girlfriend - stabs and all - and it was all filmed by the couple as it went down. Each stab was premeditated!

Of course, Glenn, I am not suggesting it in this case - the case I provided is a very weird one (I think it included elements of satanism), and it will not have any real relevance here.

Yes, I know about that case too, and of course it has to be considered highly unusual and the circumstances very extraordinary. I would say that is the only case I've come across where some kind of methodology and premeditation is displayed in such overkill with multiple wounds. That is why I never address it in connection with this case, because the context is a very special one and not comparable to other murders of this kind.
Again, what we see in the Tabram murder doesn't really differ that much from what we see in other multiple stab murders.

All the best

[Fisherman]

Agreed, Glenn - absolutely!

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Righto! Refer me to any police charge sheet,in which murder by stabbing is alledged,that contains the word'Frenzied'

[harry]

Correction.I should have written mutiple stabbing.

[Chava]

The Manson case? Anyone remember it? Those victims were stabbed over and over and over again. But they weren't killed in a 'frenzy'. It was a premeditated, planned and executed attack carried out by 4 people.

You cannot look at one aspect of a crime and dismiss it based on that one aspect. 99 times out of 100, an attack like that comes from frenzy and madness. And then there's the 100th time when it doesn't. This may or may not be that 100th time. There are a lot of things to consider in this case.

[perrymason]

The Manson case? Anyone remember it? Those victims were stabbed over and over and over again. But they weren't killed in a 'frenzy'. It was a premeditated, planned and executed attack carried out by 4 people.

You cannot look at one aspect of a crime and dismiss it based on that one aspect. 99 times out of 100, an attack like that comes from frenzy and madness. And then there's the 100th time when it doesn't. This may or may not be that 100th time. There are a lot of things to consider in this case.

Hi Chava,

If you have seen interviews with two of the women present at that killing they described simply stabbing away with out any real idea of how or where to stab someone to kill them. The stabbed many times, one remembered 16 stabs I think.

They were emotional based, drug induced acts, not premeditated...and in that way they were reminiscent of Martha's stabbing...perhaps just replace the drugs with booze.

Best regards C.