Ripper Victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Keeling isolates 21 stabs in the major organs which leaves 18 stabs unaccounted for, although I believe there were 2 stabs in the pubic area.

It's only stated that ONE wound was inflicted on the "lower body", Chava. That's one of the few clear statements we have in respect of this case.

Is there anywhere beyond what we have already that lists the positioning of the wound pattern? Because it seems to me that some of those wounds must have overlapped.

Not necessarily. Note that, apart from the neck wounds, Killeen only enumerates those stabs which punctured bone and/or subcutaneous organs. The remaining stabs could easily have been distributed over the chest or upper abdomen, without going on to puncture heart, lungs, liver, stomach, spleen.

[Fisherman]

M&P writes:

"I'm not sure if that part was aimed at me or just being put out there in general, but I wanna be clear on something: I never disbelieved Killeen or thought he got it wrong. I just wondered where the two perpetrators/two weapons aspect of Tabram's case came into the equation, and now I know. So thank you."

It was aimed at anybody who fail to recognize the value and importance of Killeens assertion, M&P. Thus clearly not at you!

Regards,
Fisherman

[Chava]

Keeling isolates 21 stabs in the major organs which leaves 18 stabs unaccounted for, although I believe there were 2 stabs in the pubic area. Which still leaves 16 stabs. We are not told about any stabs in the extremities. I know Tabram wasn't exactly a sylph, but even so, that is a lot of stabs in a fairly confined area. Is there anywhere beyond what we have already that lists the positioning of the wound pattern? Because it seems to me that some of those wounds must have overlapped--and if so I think it would be hard to isolate them as stabs. If they didn't, it would have to be more by intent than luck. Which would not point to any kind of frenzy.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

So can we please drop the "He must have messed it all up"īs, the "probably was the same blade anyway"īs and the "Killeen lacked the experience"īs, and work from the only reasonable assumption: that there WERE two blades involved. Whether they were wielded by two different perpetrators or just the one is anybodys guess - the detail of the two blades, however, is effectively not.

I'm not sure if that part was aimed at me or just being put out there in general, but I wanna be clear on something: I never disbelieved Killeen or thought he got it wrong. I just wondered where the two perpetrators/two weapons aspect of Tabram's case came into the equation, and now I know. So thank you.

[Jeff Leahy]

M&P writes:

"Where did the theory that two people could've been involved in Tabram's murder stem from?...Of course all the stab wounds wouldn't be identical, it's a ridiculous expectation to have."

As there were 39 wounds, there were also 39 different appearances, M&P. In some cases the differences would have been small inbetween the wounds, in other cases more significant.
But since Dr Killeen stated with authority and certainty that two different blades had been used, I think the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that this assertion of his was what gave rise to the (very reasonable) wiew that two men could have been involved in the Tabram slaying.

I have on this very thread elaborated on why Killeens suggestion should not be taken lightly - in fact, I see no reason whatsoever to question it, least of all from a position where no knowledge can be gained about the actual sizes and shapes of the different wounds. Killeen was there, he was a professional medico, he performed the autopsy, allowing him access to the exact courses the different stabs had taken, and the exact shapes of them within Tabrams body.
So can we please drop the "He must have messed it all up"īs, the "probably was the same blade anyway"īs and the "Killeen lacked the experience"īs, and work from the only reasonable assumption: that there WERE two blades involved. Whether they were wielded by two different perpetrators or just the one is anybodys guess - the detail of the two blades, however, is effectively not.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish

I guess anyones thought process looking at the Tabram murder must see a frenzied attack. So stopping half way through and taking out another knife dosnt seem logical. That said I'm slowly coming around to the possibility although I dont think there were two different attackers.

The two person theory also has its connection to Pearli Polls two soldier story and the reported soldier waiting for a friend. I think because of the problem with Pearli Poll most thinkers who see it either way, tend to dismiss her story. Whether Killean knew about the two soldiers? I don't know.

However you are correct in that we cant start dismissing what killean says simply because we dont like it..better to let it hang there than tuck it under the carpet.

Trust you are well

Pirate

[Fisherman]

M&P writes:

"Where did the theory that two people could've been involved in Tabram's murder stem from?...Of course all the stab wounds wouldn't be identical, it's a ridiculous expectation to have."

As there were 39 wounds, there were also 39 different appearances, M&P. In some cases the differences would have been small inbetween the wounds, in other cases more significant.
But since Dr Killeen stated with authority and certainty that two different blades had been used, I think the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that this assertion of his was what gave rise to the (very reasonable) wiew that two men could have been involved in the Tabram slaying.

I have on this very thread elaborated on why Killeens suggestion should not be taken lightly - in fact, I see no reason whatsoever to question it, least of all from a position where no knowledge can be gained about the actual sizes and shapes of the different wounds. Killeen was there, he was a professional medico, he performed the autopsy, allowing him access to the exact courses the different stabs had taken, and the exact shapes of them within Tabrams body.
So can we please drop the "He must have messed it all up"īs, the "probably was the same blade anyway"īs and the "Killeen lacked the experience"īs, and work from the only reasonable assumption: that there WERE two blades involved. Whether they were wielded by two different perpetrators or just the one is anybodys guess - the detail of the two blades, however, is effectively not.

The best,
Fisherman

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Where did the theory that two people could've been involved in Tabram's murder stem from? Because there were a couple of wounds that didn't look the same as the other so many stab wounds? Well, if so, I think the answer lies in the most likeliest scenario: the killer was in a frenzy. Of course all the stab wounds wouldn't be identical, it's a ridiculous expectation to have.

[Nothing to see]

No because that's not how the wounds were. They were stabs. Not ripping.
Hey, I'm more than happy to talk about this. Tabram was stabbed. She wasn't ripped. Whoever killed Tabram was as frenzied as he wanted to be. I think it was 2. JMO. 2 men, 2 different weapons. Not Jack. JMO.

[harry]

Nothing to see.
Have a go at this as something new.If the thirty nine wounds were the result of frenzy,would you expect that many of the wounds would show evidence of tearing or ripping of the skin,at entry or exit?

[Nothing to see]

Hi guys. I haven't been on here for a while and it looks like nothing much has changed. Nothing to see, in fact.

If there was anything, anything at all that could tie Tabram in as one of Jack's I'd go yeah! We're still going round and round in circles which is OK but.. there is no concrete proof that Tabram was one of Jack's. Sorry, but that's the truth.

[Marlowe]

So, Maidman street was one street over from Lincoln street?

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I've never had a problem with anyone arguing against Tabram's exclusion, but it is very frustrating when the "excluders" dismiss the alternative viewpoint as "desperate".

I never, ever said the alternative to Tabram being a Ripper victim was "desperate", I said some of the theories that are concocted in order to make her out to be one of Jack's kills to be desperate.

Well, "seems" is awfully subjective in this case, isn't it?

Exactly. So why is it that that particular rule of engagement only applies to people with differing opinions to yours? There's a bit of a contradictory element to saying things like that as a back-up to your argument(s). The exact same thing applies to you too.

Our little spat aside, I think we can agree to disagree on Tabram's candidacy as a Ripper victim. ;p

[Ben]

By that argument, everyone's - including yours - opinions are to be viewed in the exact same way

But I try to make a clear distinction between opinion and fact, and I find that distinction to have been lacking from your posts. I've never had a problem with anyone arguing against Tabram's exclusion, but it is very frustrating when the "excluders" dismiss the alternative viewpoint as "desperate".

So you don't think attributing all the deaths in 1888 prior to the rippings to Jack is far-fetched?

Oh, I do.

But some of the earlier attacks could well have been Jack's work.

The Millwood assault hardly screams murder, and - like I said - the Wilson thing seems like a very spur of the moment move on the offender's behalf and not a premeditated motive for murder.

Well, "seems" is awfully subjective in this case, isn't it? It seems to me that both women were viciously stabbed by men who wished to kill them but didn't succeed on account of the haphazard manner in which they went about it. As for premeditation, we have no evidence either way. The fact that the victims survived does not permit us to conclude that the attacks were not premeditated.

[Chava]

Thanks, Gareth!

That is a fair way East. But I'm not going to rule it out. The attack took place in March. He could have moved house and gone further west by the fall.

By the way, in doing other research, I came across this list on the net. The compiler has Martha 'Turner' of Gunthorpe St as the 1st Ripper victim...

Hi all,

There seems to be a fairly clear line dividing the 1888 stabbing attack/murders from the mutilation murders. And once they began, I dont recall reading about many more knife or stabbing accounts from that point on...until the odd story by Annie Farmer and the strangulation death of Rose Mylett.

My point being...there seems to be a random act or two that should be accompanying the Ripper murders that Fall. There is almost a cessation of stray murders during those months. Any knife related incidents bear some resemblance to Ripper like stories and probable witness sightings of Him.

Is it possible that some acts within the Rippers alleged head count were more like stray murders...for reasons other than madness, and ones that we cant relate directly to a serial killers rampage?

Im suggesting that isnt the probability that the Canonical Victims list is incorrect by over inflation rather than omission ....and if so, with what Group are you evaluating the killers likely proclivities?

If you omit one or more accepted Canonicals, the ones with the least in common with the remaining victims, you may have a more specific focus than believed to be...and therefore a tougher road suggesting that stabbing should be added to his available skills roster.

Best regards all.