Elizabeth Jackson murder account

[Debra A]

I'm 99.99% certain it was Arthur Shawcross (The Genesee River Killer), it was an interview with him talking about his crimes.

Hi again Versa,
I think the programme you were talking about is on UK tv tonight (Channel 5 at 10pm for anyone else interested) An Interview with Arthur Shawcross?

Thanks for mentioning it, I'll definitely watch that.

[Debra A]

Thanks for your thoughts, AP.
I don't see how it has to be mercury necessarily though.
There were a lot of effective posions available for this purpose and I've looked at a few of them in detail. Some were known to have violent side effects upon the lower bowel, so I guess that may tie in with the 'plugging.'
Like I said before, the plugging alone would not be effective in bringing on a miscarriage or cause death, it had to be used in conjunction with something else, poisons, herbs etc, whether taken orally or otherwise. It is still a method involved in 20th century abortion practices.

[Cap'n Jack]

Debs, I dwelled a bit.
I think of the case I found around the time of some poor 'unfortunates' being involved in the theft of pure mercury from the Kearly & Tonge warehouse in Mitre Square.
Why?
Because Mercury was valuable? For sure.
But even accidental exposure to mercury doubles the chance of spontaneous abortion, so what would intentional exposure to mercury achieve in a woman bent on 'shunting' her baby?
And of course, the ingestion of mercury does lead to anal bleeding.
See Thomas for more details.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Debs---will listen to it over the weekend.
Cheers
Norma

[Debra A]

The living would have escaped their interest.

I don't know, AP,
They did cover a lot of ailments and strange cures for the living too!

Norma, it was the one about the torso murders

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Debs,very helpful.I didnt know you were on a podcast---which one was that? I must listen to it!
Best

[Cap'n Jack]

'but I find it interesting that the only mention of such a thing I could find in Victorian medical texts was when used in abortion practices'.

Thanks Debs, but that could have more to do with the fact that they were dealing with dead bodies, the result of botched abortions.
The living would have escaped their interest.
I'll dwell on your thoughts and get back to you.

[Debra A]

Yes, AP,
I think it's good to look at all reasons why the 'plugging' may have been in use, it may have been an old fashioned , long forgotten treatment for the curse of piles during pregnancy for all we know. I did mention it could have had another use in the podcast, but I find it interesting that the only mention of such a thing I could find in Victorian medical texts was when used in abortion practices.

As you know, I think poor Liz was the victim of a botched abortion, but I'm not so sure the wadding was part of that

I'd be interested in your ideas of how you think this was brought about, AP.
What would you consider to have been the actual cause of death etc?

[Cap'n Jack]

Debs, as ever interesting and fundamental stuff you discuss here.
I'm a little wary of this 'wadding' business though, as a link I mean to an abortion, for is it not true to suggest that rectal bleeding asociated with pregnancy was a lot more common in the LVP than it is now?
Poor diet, long periods on their feet - forgive the pun - and a general lack of medical care and guidance seems to imply that this condition may well have been the norm.
My feeling is that this type of wadding to prevent bleeding from the anus at certain stages of pregnancy, especially around the six month mark, may have been a lot more common than we believe today.
As you know, I think poor Liz was the victim of a botched abortion, but I'm not so sure the wadding was part of that.

[Debra A]

Anything anywhere on poison? Odd to remove organs that would give evidence of it!
Norma

Hi Norma,
In his book on the torso murders, R. Michael Gordon mentions the removal of these specific organs in the EJ case, and the evidence of poisoning that they may have provided. He uses the theory in his case for Severin Klosowski being the murderer.

The Pinchin Street victim had no organs missing, the Whitehall torso had some of the pelvic organs missing, and the Rainham torso had lungs, heart and other thoracic viscera absent and also parts of the small and large intestine.
There must have been at least one other torso type murder around the same time as these four too, as a woman's thigh was found in the Thames that didn't belong to any of the other Thames found bodies.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Debs,
A very interesting case this one.Must read up on it again.
Thanks for the research.Anything anywhere on poison? Odd to remove organs that would give evidence of it!Did the Pinchin Street torso case have similar things removed do you know?
Cheers Debs,

Norma

[Debra A]

Hi Harry,
Thanks for that snippet.
The thing about the Elizabeth Jackson case is that a lot of the circumstances surrounding the mutilation of her body after death seems to have been covered up by police and press.

Bond, Hebbert, et al, did come to the conclusion that there were no signs of an illegal operation having been preformed on Elizabeth, and they were right in that there were no signs of instrument use, but the details about the 'plugging' mentioned in detail by only only one newspaper, mentioned briefly at the inquest but not in any great detail, and hinted at by Macnaghten in his memoirs, do make it appear like Elizabeth had been about to undergo some sort of process to bring about a miscarriage.

The thing is that this plugging would never have killed her, and there was no trace of any other method of bringing on a miscarriage having been used. One thing the doctors could not say for certain was whether poison had been used, as Elizabeth's windpipe, stomach and intestines had all been removed. This is the one abortion method likely to have brought on a sudden death.

Elizabeth's one time partner, John, or Smith Faircloth, also stated that Elizabeth had been unhappy with her pregnant state and had told him that she would 'shunt' the child.

[harry]

London,June 25, 1889.

The woman was of low character,and was in the habit offrequenting common lodging houses in Chelsea.She was last seen alive on May 31.The theory that she was a victim of Jack The Ripper is again revived.The police have abandoned the theory that Elizabeth Jackson was a victim of malpractice,and that her body was cut up in order to conceal the crime.
The first part of the dispatch speaks of the finding of the body,and identification through clothing and a scar.

[Debra A]

Hi Versa,

Thanks for the info on Arthur Shawcross.
I've not managed to read much on him yet, but a couple of web pages on him that I did look at mentioned leaves stuffed down the throats of his victims and didn't go into detail about much else in the case. Can you remember the name of the programmme he appeared on?

I think we definitely have to consider that Elizabeth did die as the result of an abortion gone wrong. I fought against this idea for a long time until I discovered the plugging mentioned in the papers, simply because I believed we shouldn't jump to conclusions about the reasons for her death because she was pregnant at the time.

BTW, welcome to the boards, and thanks for your input into this.

[Versa]

I'm 99.99% certain it was Arthur Shawcross (The Genesee River Killer), it was an interview with him talking about his crimes.