hi debs,
I'll have to do a bit of searching about cause i saw it on a tv program about one of the serial killers that strangled woman, i think he butchered them too, im not sure which it was at the moment though. I remember he stuffed their anus's with leaves though bcause he found they sometimes evacuated at the time of death.
I'll get back to you with a name
Elizabeth Jackson murder account
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Originally posted by Versa View Posthi,
I have an idea about this, i thought that the murder would likely of had prior experience of killing and at times people lose control of their bowels at the point of death, the plugging could of been in order to stop a mess of bowel movements occuring? I think the Green River Killer also plugged his victims anuses for this reason. This also indicates a very experienced killer who is perfecting every aspect of his killing ritual.
Thanks for the idea feedback. Do you know where I can read further about this?
Since this post I have discovered from Victorian medical texts that this was one method used in abortion practices.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the feedback and kind words.
I keep threatening to write more, I'm just not disciplined enough to actually get on with it! I will have to go about it the Barbara Cartland method maybe, laid on a chaise, chocs and wine at hand, dictating my notes to someone else.
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Thanks Versa for posting here, I had missed this thread and Debra's article. I haven't yet read this entire thread yet and I don't know if I've missed any others from her. I just wanted to say that I am glad to see Debra writing for herself as she has often assisted others with their work (I'm one who's benefited from her help). Enjoyed your article Debra.
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Originally posted by Debra A View PostIt seems like a couple of people at least have read what I wrote on the Jackson murder, does anyone have any ideas about the curious 'plugging' mention I found, at all? Does anyone know how it may relate to someone with marine or medical knowledge?
I have an idea about this, i thought that the murder would likely of had prior experience of killing and at times people lose control of their bowels at the point of death, the plugging could of been in order to stop a mess of bowel movements occuring? I think the Green River Killer also plugged his victims anuses for this reason. This also indicates a very experienced killer who is perfecting every aspect of his killing ritual.
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Hi Stan,
I think it's because the 1891 case wasn't classed as a murder, but thought to be a suicide.
At the inquest, the jury returned an open verdict. The coroner told them it was their duty to assign probabilities and give a probable cause of death. The jury then gave the opinion that the body was found in the water , and there was no evidence to show how she came there.
The coroner said that sometimes the Home Secretary wanted statistics, so the jury might want to say she was probably drowned, and this was added to the verdict.
A woman who viewed the body at the mortuary thought it might be that of her sister who had been missing for a while and had threatened to drown herself, and this evidence was given by police at the inquest.
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Hi all,
I wonder if anyone has checked the police records regarding the 1891 case. It puzzles me a little that Macnaghten didn't mention it in his 1894 memoranda. He did list Jackson, Whitehall, Pinchin St. and Rainham.
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Thanks Monty, great stuff! That's the type of thing I have been looking for.
Only trouble is if Elizabeth had been murdered or just died at sea why didn't they just wrap up her body and throw her overboard while out at sea like they did with the burials? There isn't much chance of the body bobbing back up then.
It could have been someone who was used to dealing with deaths at sea though, maybe the killer couldn't dispose of the body immediately and needed a way to preserve it from stinking decomposure a little while?
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Thanks Pinkerton,
The thing that goes against a gangland connection, as Monty has mentioned to me, is why the mutilation and dismemberment? All it would have taken to prevent identification in those days would have been to remove the head and clothing. As you say, Elizabeth's killer didn't seem to think out the identification aspect very carefully, he removed the head but then used the victim's own clothing to wrap parts of the body, plus did anyone really think that throwing a dismembered corpse in a river was a sure fire method to it being undiscovered? The previously widely reported 1887 Rainham case must have gone a way to showing that this method of disposal was not such a good method of concealment of a crime.
Elizabeth and John stayed in Whitechapel lodging house for 5 weeks in the March of 1889 I think, other than that she doesn't seem to have any real connection to Whitechapel. She was however a working prostitute, last seen being picked up by a man who had the appearance of a navvy, outside the Hospital Tavern (which I think may be near the Chelsea hospital and a regular haunt of soldiers from Chelsea Barracks) on 2nd June, although there is some confusing reporting of the last sighting of her by Jenny Lee and Elizabeth Pomeroy (one of these two girls must be 'Ginger Nell' I feel) I'm very interested in your sighting on the embankment at Wapping , what date/time was this on?Last edited by Debra A; 02-26-2008, 11:37 PM.
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Plugging was/is also sometimes done prior to execution to prevent messes but that's pretty sure not the case here unless something really freaky was going on.
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Debs,
Re plugging. Please see below.
Retention for burial ashore or post-mortem examination
Wherever possible, a body should be retained for post-mortem examination or for burial ashore. For the sake of the deceased person's relatives and to preserve the body in the best possible condition, thoroughly wash and dry the body all over. Comb out and part the hair, and give attention to the fingernails. Straighten the arms and legs, and interlock the fingers over the thighs. Tie the ankles together to keep the feet perpendicular. With forceps, place a good plug of cotton wool well up in the rectum. Pass a catheter tube into the bladder and empty it completely; if this is impracticable, make a firm tie around the root of the penis. A plug of cotton wool may be passed into each nostril. The body should then be put in a body bag; and kept in a refrigerator or cold store set aside for the purpose. Packing in ice in a bath is an alternative near port.
Taken from...http://www.navis.gr/medico/death.htm
To me, it would indicate the victim died at sea.
Monty
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Excellent job!
Originally posted by Debra A View PostMike,
Re the gangland thing, I know someone posted before the crash about the torsos and gangland connection, I think it may have been Pinkerton, although they didn't elaborate...wish they would though.
I'm glad to see someone doing more research on Elizabeth Jackson. Excellent job Debra! I've always felt that IF she was a victim of JTR she could ultimately break the case. Why? Because someone wanted her identity hidden. Why? Because they most likely had a connection to her in some way. But of course the police were ultimately able to uncover her identity, unlike the torsos in Whitehall and Pinchin Street. However whoever murdered Elizabeth Jackson was colossally stupid not to remove the writing in the clothing she was wearing. This along with a scar (which they also should have removed) was ultimately what led to her identification. Perhaps her disposal was rushed?
One of the things that always puzzled me about Elizabeth Jackson was that she was NOT a resident of the East End (which would tend to make one believe she was NOT a victim of JTR). However the Pinchin Street torso WAS found in the East End. Jackson resided in Chelsea, though I recall that she did on at least one occasion STAY in Whitechapel with her then boyfriend John Fairclough. I believe she was last seen on the Embankment in Wapping before she disappeared.
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I didn't have any cavities in my dental checkup last Thursday.
As for body damage due to barges, around 1890, were barges propeller driven? I would guess so but I haven't studied it.
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It seems like a couple of people at least have read what I wrote on the Jackson murder, does anyone have any ideas about the curious 'plugging' mention I found, at all? Does anyone know how it may relate to someone with marine or medical knowledge?
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Cheers Mike! I'll look forward to reading what you've found.
Got to go back to the dentist tomorrow too unfortunatelyGuess I'll have to quit my Haribo sour mix and fizzy fish addiction!
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Hi Debs, Glad everything was ok at the dentists, i hate them.
Anyway hot off the printer machine type thing at Local Studies and I have mound more reports.
Let me sort them out at this end as at the moment they are all over the place and I will scan them for you this week.
All the best
Mike
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