Prater's stairs

[richardh]

David,
using this quote literally it must surely mean that the ONE flight of stairs MUST be parallel to the partition (rooms 13 & 19) on the left? So, no turn in the stairs?

No Pierre, that is not correct. In the first sentence he is stating where room 19 is located within the house (so you are correct about that) but in the second sentence he is describing how to get to room 19 and, in doing so, explains where room 19 is located in respect of the stairs, i.e. once you reach the top of the stairs on the<script id="gpt-impl-0.6867255210915865" src="http://partner.googleadservices.com/gpt/pubads_impl_78.js"></script> first floor, you turn left to arrive at room 19.

[David Orsam]

[B]" It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left."

In the first sentence he has already stated where it is located within the house. In the second he merely describes the way to the first floor.

No Pierre, that is not correct. In the first sentence he is stating where room 19 is located within the house (so you are correct about that) but in the second sentence he is describing how to get to room 19 and, in doing so, explains where room 19 is located in respect of the stairs, i.e. once you reach the top of the stairs on the first floor, you turn left to arrive at room 19.

[richardh]

removed because what I wrote in reply to Pierre's post was cobblers due to my confusion. Sorry.

(I was getting confused with rooms #20 and #19)

[Pierre]

But Pierre,
Surely, if this were the case then the statement would read:

"The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left... Then turn to the left again and walk along a corridor to the first door on the left"

The statement never said anything about that.


Is the door to #19 in that corridor? If so where is the 'space of 6 - 7ft between the two rooms?

He doesn´t have to give those details. He says:

" It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left."

In the first sentence he has already stated where it is located within the house. In the second he merely describes the way to the first floor.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

We can augment the evidence from the preliminary hearings with the evidence from the trial.

David Roberts

I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom we fell against Amory's door, we could not get any further, and we both fell on the ground there.

I did not knock at Amory's door; I kicked at the partition close to it

Charles Amory (spelt "Amery" at the earlier hearings)

about 12-15 I heard a crash which sounded like glass: then struggling and a kick at the partition, and a man's voice asking for help—I recognised it as Roberts's voice—I rushed to the door, I was not in bed then—I opened my door, and saw Roberts struggling with the prisoner

The partition is all woodwork—I can hardly say where the knocking was, but it was not at my door—I never said that Roberts knocked at my door—I was examined before the Magistrate—I said then, "All of a sudden I heard a crash and straggling. About 12.15 a.m. the husband was struggling on the landing, and he rapped at my door," that is true—I have not spoken to Roberts about the case

Mary Johnson

I heard a knock at the partition—I said before the Magistrate and the Coroner that I heard a knock at the door, but it was at the partition—when I came out the deceased was outside the door.

Annie Jackson

I was in the doorway when the constable came up the stairs—when I first saw the prisoner Roberts had her by the wrist—she was in a sitting position, with her back to the partition; her feet were towards Amory's room.


I don't find it entirely easy to interpret. It's not clear to me if the partition was the wall of room 20 or something separate from it. Clearly, banging on the partition alerted the occupants of room 20 that something was up. Interesting that Annie Jackson says that Marshall had her back to the partition with her feet towards room 20. Suggests that the partition was actually separate from Amory's room

One thing that is perfectly clear is that the partition was not a door.

[richardh]

But Pierre,
Surely, if this were the case then the statement would read:

"The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left... Then turn to the left again and walk along a corridor to the first door on the left"

The statement never said anything about that.

A The approach to it is up Miller’s Court
B and then up one flight of stairs
C and turn to the left... Then where?

Is the door to #19 in that corridor? If so where is the 'space of 6 - 7ft between the two rooms?

Hi,

Try this interpretation of the testimony:

The stairs are leading up to the first floor along the exterior wall. Under the stairs is the small storage room. The "partition" is in the doorway between the front room and back room. The landing is beside that doorway. Walk up the stairs and turn left on the landing and you enter the upper archway which is a corridor.

"David Roberts (husband of deceased)

I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back.

The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left.

=
A The approach to it is up Miller’s Court
B and then up one flight of stairs
C and turn to the left

And "There is a wooden partition between, also a little store room, but it is on the same floor as Roberts."

That there is a "partion between" and "a little store room" under the stairs also fits my drawing.

And also " when I got her outside on the landing I kicked the partition": i.e. WHEN ="at the same time". It fits. He kicked it as he got her out of the door.

And "I saw blood on the landing outside the front room – some in the passage also and some on the partition in the passage."

B] PASSAGE.

The passage is in the corridor and the partition there is the other partition that you can see on the map for the ground floor. So it should have been the same on the first floor. ( _ _ _ _ _ )

All this fits both the Marshall case and the Kelly case with all the witnesses including Prater.


Regards Pierre
[/B]

[Pierre]

Hmmm!
So is this image in agreement with the statements?




This:

throws me a bit. Implies that between the two rooms there is a partition that crosses the landing and I can't help but think of the Thomas Plan when visualising the statements.

The stairs also trouble me. I have in my mind's eye a straight set of stairs going up the side next to the partition.

Hi,

Try this interpretation of the testimony:

The stairs are leading up to the first floor along the exterior wall. Under the stairs is the small storage room. The "partition" is in the doorway between the front room and back room. The landing is beside that doorway. Walk up the stairs and turn left on the landing and you enter the upper archway which is a corridor.

"David Roberts (husband of deceased)

I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back.

The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left.

=
A The approach to it is up Miller’s Court
B and then up one flight of stairs
C and turn to the left

And "There is a wooden partition between, also a little store room, but it is on the same floor as Roberts."

That there is a "partion between" and "a little store room" under the stairs also fits my drawing.

And also " when I got her outside on the landing I kicked the partition": i.e. WHEN ="at the same time". It fits. He kicked it as he got her out of the door.

And "I saw blood on the landing outside the front room – some in the passage also and some on the partition in the passage."

B] PASSAGE.

The passage is in the corridor and the partition there is the other partition that you can see on the map for the ground floor. So it should have been the same on the first floor. ( _ _ _ _ _ )

And: "The witness Amery’s room is divided from ours by a narrow passage and another room, a dark place with no window, in which people sleep of a night." What does she mean by "another room"? The small storage space?


Regards Pierre

[richardh]

Hmmm!
So is this image in agreement with the statements?




This:

There is a partition and a little store-room between us. I can hear what goes on in Roberts’ room.

throws me a bit. Implies that between the two rooms there is a partition that crosses the landing and I can't help but think of the Thomas Plan when visualising the statements.

The stairs also trouble me. I have in my mind's eye a straight set of stairs going up the side next to the partition.

Okay, here are the relevant extracts that I have identified from CRIM 1/54/6. I set out first the evidence from the Coroner's Court followed by the evidence from the Police Court. I repeat that the plan referred to in the evidence is not in the file.

Coroner’s Court

David Roberts (husband of deceased)

I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left. My wife’s sister, Kate Marshall, has been living with us three months. She used to sleep on the floor in the corner on our bed, and we slept on the mattress.

Kate Marshall then rushed at my wife and claimed her by the hair of her head. The two came together, met one another. They struggled or fought together and fell against the table. The table went over, likewise the crockery that was on it. Kate Marshall then got hold of the milk jug and smashed four squares of glass in the window, part of the jug was afterwards found in the room and part in the court. …There was a lamp alight, hanging on the wall of the room.

I jumped out of bed then, and rushed at Kate Marshall and claimed her by the wrist. I struggled with her until I got her to the passage, when I got her outside on the landing I kicked the partition to alarm people in the front room to get some assistance.

When I kicked the partition Mr Amery came…

My wife was lying at the top of the stairs about six feet from our door, near Mr Amery’s door.

While I was struggling with Kate Marshall on the landing my wife came out of her room and fell against me.

Charles Amery

I reside at 20 Room, at 26, Dorset Street, Spitalfields.

My room adjoins the room occupied by the deceased. There is a partition and a little store-room between us. I can hear what goes on in Roberts’ room.

My window looks into Dorset Street and the Roberts’ window looks into Miller’s Court.

All of a sudden I heard a crash and struggling. About 12.15 a.m. the husband was struggling on the landing, and he rapped my door and said “Any one” and asked for help. I rushed to the door. I saw Roberts struggling with Kate Marshall. He was on the landing with only his shirt on.

Mary Johnson went for a constable, and just as the constable was coming up the stairs the deceased fell outside my door.

Mary Johnson (wife of Amery)

About 12.15 I heard struggling in the passage and a knock at our door. Amery opened the door and I saw deceased with her hands up to her head, and Roberts and Kate Marshall were struggling. I went and fetched a constable. Deceased was bleeding from the chest. I came back with the police. The deceased was then sitting on the stairs.

Elizabeth Yoxall

I reside at 6 Dorset Street.

On Sunday, 27th November, about 12.15 to 12.30 I was coming through Miller’s Court, and I heard screams at No. 26 Dorset Street. I went upstairs and saw Roberts struggling with Kate Marshall on the landing.

Deceased was lying on the same landing.

PC Fry

I was called by Mary Johnson to 26, Dorset Street. She said a woman had been stabbed there. I proceeded there. I entered by a side door in Miller’s Court, which was open. I went upstairs to the landing on the first floor. There I saw deceased in a sitting position with her feet towards the staircase.

Roberts and Marshall were struggling on the same landing.

It was very dark on the landing, and I did not notice if there was any blood on the hands of Kate Marshall.

Frank Hewitt Oliver (Divisional Surgeon)

I was called by the police at 1 a.m. on Sunday, November 27th to 26, Dorset Street and there viewed the dead body of deceased. She was lying on the floor of the front room quite dead at the foot of the bed…On the landing outside this room there was blood viz.: a small pool on the top stair, and another small pool on the next stair. There was blood in the passage, and some blood had spurted on the partition. The back room was in disorder. The table and windows were smashed, and there was broken crockery on the floor, blood marks on the floor near the door.

 
Police Court

PC Alfred Fry

I went to 26 Dorset St. I entered by the side entrance in Miller’s Court. I went upstairs to the landing on the first floor where I saw the injured woman Elizabeth Roberts (now dead) on the landing in a sitting position. Her feet were forward towards the staircase.

Prisoner was being held down on the same landing by the injured woman’s husband.

PC Albert Hawkyard

I have prepared and I produce, a plan of 26 Dorset St.

It shows the interiors of the rooms 19 & 20 and also shows the staircase between these 2 rooms.

The plan is correct and according to scale.

David Roberts (husband of deceased)

I room at 26 Dorset St. number 19 – the first floor back room. To get to that room you have to go up Miller’s Court. …

…All at once prisoner got hold of the remains of a cracked jug and started smashing the windows with it. She broke 4 squares of glass in the top sash & the jug flew in pieces…I then jumped out of bed and claimed the prisoner by her wrists. I struggled with her till I got her out into the passage. I kicked the partition and people in the front room came to my assistance. During the time I was struggling with prisoner in the passage my wife came out of the room and fell against me and fell on the top of the landing where I was struggling with the prisoner.

A constable came to the top of the stairs. My wife was then lying on the landing at the top of the stairs near Mr Amery’s front room door. I was struggling with prisoner close to where my wife was lying.

Charles Amery

I occupy room no. 20 at 26 Dorset St with Mary Johnson.

My room adjoins that occupied by the last witness. There is a wooden partition between, also a little store room, but it is on the same floor as Roberts. I can hear what goes on in the room….My window looks into Dorset St & that of Roberts into Miller’s Court.

The quarrel stopped after a few minutes and then started again and I then heard a crash of glass...The quarrel still continued & about quarter past 12 I heard a crash & struggling. Then I heard someone knock at the partition and Roberts asked for help. I rushed to the door & opened it.

I saw Roberts & the prisoner struggling on the landing.

Deceased was walking from her room to get onto the landing…The deceased fell on to the top stairs of the landing…the deceased was carried into my room and laid at the foot of the bed.

xx

There is a space of between 6 & 7 feet between the two rooms.

Mary Johnson

I am single and live with last witness (Amery) in room 20 at 26 Dorset St…

About 12.15 there was a knock at the door. Amery opened it. I came out…The deceased was standing outside the door with her hands up to her head, bleeding from the chest.

PC James Randall

From information I went to 26 Dorset St. I went in by the Miller’s Court door.

Franklin Hewitt Oliver (Divisional Surgeon)

I saw blood on the landing outside the front room – some in the passage also and some on the partition in the passage.

In the back room which was in disorder I found a table overturned & a window broken. There was smashed crockery on the and blood marks on the floor near the door.

Kate Marshall

Up to the time of my arrest I lived at 26 Dorset St. On 26 November I was living there with the deceased, the man Roberts and one child. We all occupied the first floor back room.

The witness Amery’s room is divided from ours by a narrow passage and another room, a dark place with no window, in which people sleep of a night.

It [the knife] was usually kept on a little shelf at the front of the bed near the window.

I don’t remember my window being broken. There were none to break. They were all paper.

[David Orsam]

Okay, here are the relevant extracts that I have identified from CRIM 1/54/6. I set out first the evidence from the Coroner's Court followed by the evidence from the Police Court. I repeat that the plan referred to in the evidence is not in the file.

Coroner’s Court

David Roberts (husband of deceased)

I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller’s Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left. My wife’s sister, Kate Marshall, has been living with us three months. She used to sleep on the floor in the corner on our bed, and we slept on the mattress.

Kate Marshall then rushed at my wife and claimed her by the hair of her head. The two came together, met one another. They struggled or fought together and fell against the table. The table went over, likewise the crockery that was on it. Kate Marshall then got hold of the milk jug and smashed four squares of glass in the window, part of the jug was afterwards found in the room and part in the court. …There was a lamp alight, hanging on the wall of the room.

I jumped out of bed then, and rushed at Kate Marshall and claimed her by the wrist. I struggled with her until I got her to the passage, when I got her outside on the landing I kicked the partition to alarm people in the front room to get some assistance.

When I kicked the partition Mr Amery came…

My wife was lying at the top of the stairs about six feet from our door, near Mr Amery’s door.

While I was struggling with Kate Marshall on the landing my wife came out of her room and fell against me.

Charles Amery

I reside at 20 Room, at 26, Dorset Street, Spitalfields.

My room adjoins the room occupied by the deceased. There is a partition and a little store-room between us. I can hear what goes on in Roberts’ room.

My window looks into Dorset Street and the Roberts’ window looks into Miller’s Court.

All of a sudden I heard a crash and struggling. About 12.15 a.m. the husband was struggling on the landing, and he rapped my door and said “Any one” and asked for help. I rushed to the door. I saw Roberts struggling with Kate Marshall. He was on the landing with only his shirt on.

Mary Johnson went for a constable, and just as the constable was coming up the stairs the deceased fell outside my door.

Mary Johnson (wife of Amery)

About 12.15 I heard struggling in the passage and a knock at our door. Amery opened the door and I saw deceased with her hands up to her head, and Roberts and Kate Marshall were struggling. I went and fetched a constable. Deceased was bleeding from the chest. I came back with the police. The deceased was then sitting on the stairs.

Elizabeth Yoxall

I reside at 6 Dorset Street.

On Sunday, 27th November, about 12.15 to 12.30 I was coming through Miller’s Court, and I heard screams at No. 26 Dorset Street. I went upstairs and saw Roberts struggling with Kate Marshall on the landing.

Deceased was lying on the same landing.

PC Fry

I was called by Mary Johnson to 26, Dorset Street. She said a woman had been stabbed there. I proceeded there. I entered by a side door in Miller’s Court, which was open. I went upstairs to the landing on the first floor. There I saw deceased in a sitting position with her feet towards the staircase.

Roberts and Marshall were struggling on the same landing.

It was very dark on the landing, and I did not notice if there was any blood on the hands of Kate Marshall.

Frank Hewitt Oliver (Divisional Surgeon)

I was called by the police at 1 a.m. on Sunday, November 27th to 26, Dorset Street and there viewed the dead body of deceased. She was lying on the floor of the front room quite dead at the foot of the bed…On the landing outside this room there was blood viz.: a small pool on the top stair, and another small pool on the next stair. There was blood in the passage, and some blood had spurted on the partition. The back room was in disorder. The table and windows were smashed, and there was broken crockery on the floor, blood marks on the floor near the door.

 
Police Court

PC Alfred Fry

I went to 26 Dorset St. I entered by the side entrance in Miller’s Court. I went upstairs to the landing on the first floor where I saw the injured woman Elizabeth Roberts (now dead) on the landing in a sitting position. Her feet were forward towards the staircase.

Prisoner was being held down on the same landing by the injured woman’s husband.

PC Albert Hawkyard

I have prepared and I produce, a plan of 26 Dorset St.

It shows the interiors of the rooms 19 & 20 and also shows the staircase between these 2 rooms.

The plan is correct and according to scale.

David Roberts (husband of deceased)

I room at 26 Dorset St. number 19 – the first floor back room. To get to that room you have to go up Miller’s Court. …

…All at once prisoner got hold of the remains of a cracked jug and started smashing the windows with it. She broke 4 squares of glass in the top sash & the jug flew in pieces…I then jumped out of bed and claimed the prisoner by her wrists. I struggled with her till I got her out into the passage. I kicked the partition and people in the front room came to my assistance. During the time I was struggling with prisoner in the passage my wife came out of the room and fell against me and fell on the top of the landing where I was struggling with the prisoner.

A constable came to the top of the stairs. My wife was then lying on the landing at the top of the stairs near Mr Amery’s front room door. I was struggling with prisoner close to where my wife was lying.

Charles Amery

I occupy room no. 20 at 26 Dorset St with Mary Johnson.

My room adjoins that occupied by the last witness. There is a wooden partition between, also a little store room, but it is on the same floor as Roberts. I can hear what goes on in the room….My window looks into Dorset St & that of Roberts into Miller’s Court.

The quarrel stopped after a few minutes and then started again and I then heard a crash of glass...The quarrel still continued & about quarter past 12 I heard a crash & struggling. Then I heard someone knock at the partition and Roberts asked for help. I rushed to the door & opened it.

I saw Roberts & the prisoner struggling on the landing.

Deceased was walking from her room to get onto the landing…The deceased fell on to the top stairs of the landing…the deceased was carried into my room and laid at the foot of the bed.

xx

There is a space of between 6 & 7 feet between the two rooms.

Mary Johnson

I am single and live with last witness (Amery) in room 20 at 26 Dorset St…

About 12.15 there was a knock at the door. Amery opened it. I came out…The deceased was standing outside the door with her hands up to her head, bleeding from the chest.

PC James Randall

From information I went to 26 Dorset St. I went in by the Miller’s Court door.

Franklin Hewitt Oliver (Divisional Surgeon)

I saw blood on the landing outside the front room – some in the passage also and some on the partition in the passage.

In the back room which was in disorder I found a table overturned & a window broken. There was smashed crockery on the and blood marks on the floor near the door.

Kate Marshall

Up to the time of my arrest I lived at 26 Dorset St. On 26 November I was living there with the deceased, the man Roberts and one child. We all occupied the first floor back room.

The witness Amery’s room is divided from ours by a narrow passage and another room, a dark place with no window, in which people sleep of a night.

It [the knife] was usually kept on a little shelf at the front of the bed near the window.

I don’t remember my window being broken. There were none to break. They were all paper.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou for taking the time David.

[richardh]

Great David, I look forward to reading them.
thanks

Old Bailey trial papers are housed at the National Archives, not the LMA, under the CRIM series. In the case of Kate Marshall, the file has been retained; it has reference CRIM 1/54/6. As I was at the National Archives this morning, I took a look (and made a copy) and, as is usual for murder cases, it contains only the depositions taken before the magistrate and the coroner. No exhibits have been retained so there is no plan.

I suspect that most of the evidence at the preliminary hearings duplicates that given at the trial, which we find transcribed on the Old Bailey website, but there may be one or two additional clues that might assist with the layout of the building. I'll type up the relevant passages and post them here shortly.

[David Orsam]

The trial records of the Kate Marshall case in Jan. 1899 at the Old Bailey may still reside in the archives of the London Metropolitan Archives.
The floor plan of No.26 Dorset St. produced at this trial may have been too large to keep (it would have to be large enough for the jury to see across a room).
However, a smaller copy may have been preserved in the records, its a long shot but if anyone is in commuting distance of the L.M.A., it may be worth making an inquiry.

Old Bailey trial papers are housed at the National Archives, not the LMA, under the CRIM series. In the case of Kate Marshall, the file has been retained; it has reference CRIM 1/54/6. As I was at the National Archives this morning, I took a look (and made a copy) and, as is usual for murder cases, it contains only the depositions taken before the magistrate and the coroner. No exhibits have been retained so there is no plan.

I suspect that most of the evidence at the preliminary hearings duplicates that given at the trial, which we find transcribed on the Old Bailey website, but there may be one or two additional clues that might assist with the layout of the building. I'll type up the relevant passages and post them here shortly.

[richardh]

Two .gifs of Dorset street reconstruction:



The one below features Prater's stairs

[Elamarna]

thanks Wickerman

I had not noticed that.

legend, key all the same thing, iF you said "legend shows", which i think you have, i would understand what you meant

[Wickerman]

The list of symbols on a map is refereed to as the KEY. at least it was when I did A level Geography.

Here in Canada/US the table of symbols is a, Legend.

The map shows an opening in the passageway, which according to the KEY is on one floor only, the marking used is 1st, but given the the map uses the American system for some reason, that is the British ground floor.

Does that make it clear my friend

Apparently not, especially when Pierre offers up the symbol for 'windows' when the subject is an 'opening' (door).