Prater's stairs

[Stephen Thomas]

I wonder if there is a way to adjust that landing so the two doors face each other?

Yes there is a way to explain this Richard though I originally discounted it. This would involve the corridor being on the left hand side of the storeroom which then turns right outside Amory's door in #20 towards the first floor landing of the main staircase. Why I discounted this idea was the fact that the left hand wall would have contained at least a chimney breast and possibly a fireplace which would block the corridor somewhat. In my plan the landings are constant and can't be adjusted. There could of course have been more partitions apart from the one usually talked about eg as the sides of the storeroom or even part of the wall between room #20 and the storeroom which would have had double doors originally.

[richardh]

Oh, yes, sorry, I meant Kate Marshall not Kitty Ronan.

I wonder if there is a way to adjust that landing so the two doors face each other?

Hi Richard

Well it wasn't the Kitty Ronan murder but no matter. We know that the ground floor of #26 was converted into a storage area for costermonger's barrows and it's quite possible that the internal walls and indeed the lower part of the staircase were removed to maximise space for the barrows.

The second point is a real problem and something I've been trying to make sense out of since I read the 1899 transcript of the Kate Marshall murder trial. The only conclusion I can come to, given that there was a storeroom and a corridor between the two rooms, is that Amory was wrong when he said that he could see the doorway of #19 from his own doorway in #20.

The corridor as far as I can see would start at the top of Prater's stairs on the right and go in a backwards 'L' shape round the storeroom to the first floor landing.

[Pierre]

The list of symbols on a map is refereed to as the KEY. at least it was when I did A level Geography.

The map shows an opening in the passageway, which according to the KEY is on one floor only, the marking used is 1st, but given the the map uses the American system for some reason, that is the British ground floor.

Does that make it clear my friend

Elamarna

Yes, thanks, I know. But how do you interpret this? The notations on the map are very small.

Is it the first and second floor? Or the ground floor and first floor?

Regards Pierre

[Stephen Thomas]

Stephen,
I think we are finding it hard to believe because it seems a lot of trouble to construct a 2nd staircase and partition because the front door was locked. Surely something like a double door partition/hallway from front door to original stairs would have been easier and cheaper? Also, Your plan (my model shows there is no way for door #19 and door #20 to face & be visible to each other which contradicts the Kitty Ronan murder.

These are the two points that cause problems.

Hi Richard

Well it wasn't the Kitty Ronan murder but no matter. We know that the ground floor of #26 was converted into a storage area for costermonger's barrows and it's quite possible that the internal walls and indeed the lower part of the staircase were removed to maximise space for the barrows.

The second point is a real problem and something I've been trying to make sense out of since I read the 1899 transcript of the Kate Marshall murder trial. The only conclusion I can come to, given that there was a storeroom and a corridor between the two rooms, is that Amory was wrong when he said that he could see the doorway of #19 from his own doorway in #20.

The corridor as far as I can see would start at the top of Prater's stairs on the right and go in a backwards 'L' shape round the storeroom to the first floor landing.

[richardh]

Here's the link to the Goad's 3D plan on Sketchfab:

Goad's 3D Plan

https://skfb.ly/JCGq

[richardh]

Sorry, Post above is wrong and I can't edit now! Correct link in this post.

Here is the Thomas Plan on Sketchfab (3D viewer) to make it easier to view.

Stephen, any changes/alterations/additions etc?

Please let me know so I can get it exactly how you want it to look.

Thanks

https://skfb.ly/JCFt

(I'll do the same for the Goad Plan once it's finished)

[richardh]

Here is the Thomas Plan on Sketchfab (3D viewer) to make it easier to view.

Stephen, any changes/alterations/additions etc?

Please let me know so I can get it exactly how you want it to look.

Thanks

Goad's 3D Plan

[richardh]

I'm not sure if and why it matters about Pierre's theory of this passage to #27.

Why is this important Pierre?

No Pierre,

you are claiming that once climbing the stairs to the 1st floor(uk) there is an opening into the upper passageway, so that in your view people can get from 26 into 27
i am saying there is and opening into the lower passageway.

completely different

[Elamarna]

What do you mean by "the key makes that very clear"? Could you please explain?

Regards Pierre

The list of symbols on a map is refereed to as the KEY. at least it was when I did A level Geography.

The map shows an opening in the passageway, which according to the KEY is on one floor only, the marking used is 1st, but given the the map uses the American system for some reason, that is the British ground floor.

Does that make it clear my friend

Elamarna

[Elamarna]

Yes. That is what I am saying too.

No Pierre,

you are claiming that once climbing the stairs to the 1st floor(uk) there is an opening into the upper passageway, so that in your view people can get from 26 into 27
i am saying there is and opening into the lower passageway.

completely different

[richardh]

Stephen,
I think we are finding it hard to believe because it seems a lot of trouble to construct a 2nd staircase and partition because the front door was locked. Surely something like a double door partition/hallway from front door to original stairs would have been easier and cheaper? Also, Your plan (my model shows there is no way for door #19 and door #20 to face & be visible to each other which contradicts the Kitty Ronan murder.

These are the two points that cause problems.

Well I was very impressed by your thoroughness Richard and if it proves something to you in your mind then all well and good. To repeat what I said earlier on this thread we know that there was a staircase behind the partition and it must have been between the partition and the main back wall of the house. Someone here is now questioning the 'logic' of having two staircases in the house when the reason for the second staircase is explained in contemporary reports i.e. that it was the only way for tenants to get to their rooms on the upper floors because the front door was locked.

[Pierre]

Richard.
Even if you added another 3ft to the depth of Kelly's rear structure, thereby feeling more satisfied that room for an extra set of stairs is physically possible, you are still left with finding a logical reason why two sets of stairs would be built within feet of each other to service the same landing.

Lack of room is not the concern, it is lack of a logical reason to include it.

I agree.

Pierre

[Pierre]

that is an opening on the ground floor.
the key makes that very clear

What do you mean by "the key makes that very clear"? Could you please explain?

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

But Pierre, there is no opening into that area. you keep saying the map is valid and reliable, why does it not show then, the opening is on the ground floor

Yes. That is what I am saying too.

[Stephen Thomas]

Stephen, did you see what I said about the panoramic shot of the demolition photo of Miller's Court? That the depth of #13/#19 seems greater than what is depicted in Goad's plans and strengthens your plan of the innards of #26?


any thoughts on that?

Well I was very impressed by your thoroughness Richard and if it proves something to you in your mind then all well and good. To repeat what I said earlier on this thread we know that there was a staircase behind the partition and it must have been between the partition and the main back wall of the house. Someone here is now questioning the 'logic' of having two staircases in the house when the reason for the second staircase is explained in contemporary reports i.e. that it was the only way for tenants to get to their rooms on the upper floors because the front door was locked.