Did Mary know her killer?

[RockySullivan]

Yes. Hutchinson knew Mary,lacked sixpence earlier so he couldn't hire her services. He waited hopefully outside Millers Court (he wasn't lurking outside her door) in case her client left and he could then go and see if he could get a freebie from her in her nice warm bed.

That's an interesting take on it but quite unlikely. Why would Mary give hutch a freebie + share her bed? Have you ever heard of a john waiting outside a prostitutes window in hopes of a freebie? I didn't think they knew each other that well, and Kelly was asking hutch for $ not the other way around. It's possible but seems like an unrealistic scenario.

[Abby Normal]

That's an interesting take on it but quite unlikely. Why would Mary give hutch a freebie + share her bed? Have you ever heard of a john waiting outside a prostitutes window in hopes of a freebie? I didn't think they knew each other that well, and Kelly was asking hutch for $ not the other way around. It's possible but seems like an unrealistic scenario.

Hi Rocky and Rosella

Hutch probably never saw and spoke to mary that night, nor A-man. However, he probably was there a la Lewis.I would venture then that if he was NOT her killer then he was looking for a place to crash. He had no money, no place to stay and by his own admission knew Mary and gave her money from time to time, and was perhaps hoping she would help him out-return the favor. She was known to be kind hearted and let people stay at her place in a pinch, so maybe hutch knew this.

In this scenario, hes looking for somewhere to sleep, goes to her place, realizes shes with someone and goes out to wait for that person to leave.
That person Mary is with does not leave, so hutch gives up and leaves.
Later making up the story he saw her and Aman to profit somehow.

[GregBaron]

The Usual Suspect...

Later making up the story he saw her and Aman to profit somehow.

But how Abby? Perhaps profit isn't the right word. He probably wanted to deflect suspicion by offering up the stereotypical unctuous Jew....

I like your idea about wanting to crash though....recall that it was raining and he supposedly walked a great deal....


Greg

[Abby Normal]

But how Abby? Perhaps profit isn't the right word. He probably wanted to deflect suspicion by offering up the stereotypical unctuous Jew....

I like your idea about wanting to crash though....recall that it was raining and he supposedly walked a great deal....


Greg

Hi Greg
for some reward
money from the police for walking around with them looking
15 minutes of fame
wanting to see the body
free drinks down the pub
money for his story from the press
sympathy
whatever...

[RockySullivan]

Hi Greg
for some reward
money from the police for walking around with them looking
15 minutes of fame
wanting to see the body
free drinks down the pub
money for his story from the press
sympathy
whatever...

Hi Abby, is 15 minutes worth opening himself up to being suspected of her murder if his plan didn't work out? It's a possibility

[GregBaron]

For whom the bell tolls...

for some reward
money from the police for walking around with them looking
15 minutes of fame
wanting to see the body
free drinks down the pub
money for his story from the press
sympathy
whatever...

I see Abby. I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures.

Do you think MJK knew Blotchy as a drinking pal or a customer? And if you think Blotchy is the fiend, what time do you think the murder took place?

Did he spend 3 hours in there before the 4 am death knell?

Perhaps he was waiting for Hutch and the others to clear the area before committing the dastardly deed....



Greg

[RockySullivan]

Would have hutch have seen bowyer at the tap...or would bowyer have noticed hutch loitering?

[Abby Normal]

I see Abby. I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures.

Do you think MJK knew Blotchy as a drinking pal or a customer? And if you think Blotchy is the fiend, what time do you think the murder took place?

Did he spend 3 hours in there before the 4 am death knell?

Perhaps he was waiting for Hutch and the others to clear the area before committing the dastardly deed....



Greg

Hi Greg
50/50 she knew him as customer or friend (or potential boyfriend). Seems to me she knew him, even in passing.

And yes I think he is most likely than all the suspects to be the fiend. And I think the murder took place between 1:00 am and 4:00 am, more toward the latter per the screams.

And yes, perhaps he was waiting for things to quiet down before he struck-re the women coming and going, hutch coming into the court around 3:30ish, and per an article Debra Arif found-Bowyer in the court in the middle of the night also.

and/Or perhaps he was waiting for her to pass out.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Greg
50/50 she knew him as customer or friend (or potential boyfriend). Seems to me she knew him, even in passing.

And yes I think he is most likely than all the suspects to be the fiend. And I think the murder took place between 1:00 am and 4:00 am, more toward the latter per the screams.

And yes, perhaps he was waiting for things to quiet down before he struck-re the women coming and going, hutch coming into the court around 3:30ish, and per an article Debra Arif found-Bowyer in the court in the middle of the night also.

and/Or perhaps he was waiting for her to pass out.

How often when Kelly brought clients to her apt were they sleeping over? I imagine this would be a higher rate than the usual

[GUT]

How often when Kelly brought clients to her apt were they sleeping over? I imagine this would be a higher rate than the usual

Why would it be any higher for her than any other prostitute with her own room?

[RockySullivan]

Why would it be any higher for her than any other prostitute with her own room?

Because if Kelly brought for instance Blotchy back to her room she's going to charge him for sex. Then he leaves and she can bring in Astrakhan and charge him for sex. I'm assuming it's going to cost more to pay her for the whole night right?

[GUT]

Sorry I thought you were saying the rate [or frequency] of clients staying over would be higher than for others but I now take it you mean she would charge more if they were staying the night.

[DRoy]

Yeah, I must admit Im a bit of a stickler when people post comment after comment based on assumptions that have no foundation in any evidence anywhere . In this instance, the night of Nov 8th, 1888, there is no evidence Mary was soliciting, and since she lived with a man until the end of October who objected to her selling herself and who was supporting her financially, there is no evidence that while Barnett lived there Mary solicited regularly.

Her arrears is some evidence of that statement...(arrears that some continue to question despite the landlords statement that they existed)...and there is no evidence anywhere that shows us Mary started bringing clients into a room leased under her name after Barnett left.

Agreed. There is a reason MJK and Barnett got kicked out of their last place and why they were behind in rent again...because she wasn't 'working' (or at least not that much).

She is already far behind in rent, it's cold and rainy, and during the Ripper scare, so she's going to bring a customer home to her place? I think it more likely she was 'escorted' home by someone she considered trustworthy.

Cheers
DRoy

[RockySullivan]

Agreed. There is a reason MJK and Barnett got kicked out of their last place and why they were behind in rent again...because she wasn't 'working' (or at least not that much).

She is already far behind in rent, it's cold and rainy, and during the Ripper scare, so she's going to bring a customer home to her place? I think it more likely she was 'escorted' home by someone she considered trustworthy.

Cheers
DRoy

Well we know Prater was a prostitute. Weren't most of the tenants in Kelly's building? Why would Kelly not be working? Seems pretty clear she was a prostitute...especially considering the ripper and all

[GUT]

Well we know Prater was a prostitute. Weren't most of the tenants in Kelly's building? Why would Kelly not be working? Seems pretty clear she was a prostitute...especially considering the ripper and all

Not specifically addressing your comments per se Rocky, but the topic itself I wonder why her death certificate lists her as a prostitute?