Did Mary know her killer?

[Wickerman]

Yes. Hutchinson knew Mary,lacked sixpence earlier so he couldn't hire her services. He waited hopefully outside Millers Court (he wasn't lurking outside her door) in case her client left and he could then go and see if he could get a freebie from her in her nice warm bed.

By his own words, he knew her. And 2-3 yrs previous Kelly had lived in a house owned by a man who kept stables in Romford. So the potential for a connection is evident.
Though, it is hard to say why he stood outside for so long. First, we don't know the nature of their relationship, and second, we do not know what his character was.
If he had a dishonest streak in him he may have been waiting for Astrachan to emerge, and avail himself of anything worthy.
On the other hand he may have been intending to work on Kelly's generosity and beg for a place to stay overnight.
Either is possible.

[DRoy]

Well we know Prater was a prostitute. Weren't most of the tenants in Kelly's building? Why would Kelly not be working? Seems pretty clear she was a prostitute...especially considering the ripper and all

Rocky,

Barnett wasn't gone long so why would MJK all of sudden think McCarthy was going to kick her out if she didn't prostitute herself and pay? Perhaps she was paying rent by allowing her friends to do business in her room.

Maybe she was a prostitute and had solicited that night, but there is no evidence of it. Possible, yes. Probable, to some. So no, sorry Rocky, it isn't "clear" and without evidence it is only speculation.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Barnett said in his police statement that he left Kelly due to her,..."resorting to prostitution".

[GUT]

Barnett said in his police statement that he left Kelly due to her,..."resorting to prostitution".

Which was probably "forced" on her when he lost his job.

[DRoy]

Barnett said in his police statement that he left Kelly due to her,..."resorting to prostitution".

Thanks Jon,

The odd thing of course being when he testified at the inquest three days later he said the sole reason he left her was because of Julia and then Harvey stayed in her room. The same police statement states that him being unable to provide money to MJK as another reason for leaving, yet at the inquest he says the opposite. Which version is true or a lie? As he spoke at the inquest does that mean his police statement is incorrect?

Regardless, assuming she was a prostitute, we don't know how often she solicited, when she did, whether she used her room at all, etc. Most importantly we don't know any of that on the night before she was murdered nor the early morning when she was murdered.

My point being, I doubt MJK was so scared of paying her rent that she took a random unknown client home that night. She already owed weeks worth of rent, could have been charging fellow prostitutes for use of the room so she wouldn't have to prostitute herself, JTR was on the loose, etc.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon,

The odd thing of course being when he testified at the inquest three days later he said the sole reason he left her was because of Julia and then Harvey stayed in her room. The same police statement states that him being unable to provide money to MJK as another reason for leaving, yet at the inquest he says the opposite. Which version is true or a lie? As he spoke at the inquest does that mean his police statement is incorrect?

Yes, I am aware of the differences.
The way I read it is, when being interviewed by Abberline, it's a one-to-one situation - no publicity.
But then in court he is talking in front of the public and the press, so he toned it down a bit. The reason he gave was essentially the same, "because of Mrs Harvey", well Mrs Harvey was also a prostitute - the implication is the same.

My point being, I doubt MJK was so scared of paying her rent that she took a random unknown client home that night. She already owed weeks worth of rent, could have been charging fellow prostitutes for use of the room so she wouldn't have to prostitute herself, JTR was on the loose, etc.

As far as we know Mary Kelly had no other means of support, so if she needed to eat or drink, she had to do something to get it.
Considering she had done nothing else but prostitute herself since being a teenager, what do you think her most likely option was?

[DRoy]

As far as we know Mary Kelly had no other means of support, so if she needed to eat or drink, she had to do something to get it. Considering she had done nothing else but prostitute herself since being a teenager, what do you think her most likely option was?

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.

She had a roof over her head and a bed to sleep in. She also had food and drink that night (even if it came from a customer as part or full 'payment', there was no reason to take him home). News about the murders were read to her, she knew her home wasn't on a safe street nor in a safe area, and The Ripper was on the loose. Plus she bought a candle earlier that day.

Doesn't sound to me like someone so scared of how she's going to survive that she'd risk taking someone home (or allow in) that she didn't already know and trust.

Cheers
DRoy

[RockySullivan]

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.

She had a roof over her head and a bed to sleep in. She also had food and drink that night (even if it came from a customer as part or full 'payment', there was no reason to take him home). News about the murders were read to her, she knew her home wasn't on a safe street nor in a safe area, and The Ripper was on the loose. Plus she bought a candle earlier that day.

Doesn't sound to me like someone so scared of how she's going to survive that she'd risk taking someone home (or allow in) that she didn't already know and trust.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy, but if that was her profession that means that's how she earns living. This is assuming Kelly was a prostitute and not just resorting to only when no work is available. I thought Kelly working in a brothel previously was an indicator she had been working as a prostitute for some time, plus McCarthys building almost sounds like a brothel. If Kelly was a prostitute she's going to "work" and earn money, probably as much as she can. Think about the way drug addicted woman are trapped in a cycle of prostitution and you've probably got a similar scenario with Kelly and drinking/prostitution.

[Azarna]

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.
DRoy

She may have known that someone was coming to collect the overdue rent the following morning. Maybe her final chance to pay or she would be thrown out.

That would be a very good reason to risk another client. And one who was going to get "the indoors experience" may well have paid more than the "quick fumble in a dark alley" type.

[Abby Normal]

hi Droy
exactly what I have been saying. and if blotchy also gave her some money, she's got no reason to go out again.

[Michael W Richards]

Not specifically addressing your comments per se Rocky, but the topic itself I wonder why her death certificate lists her as a prostitute?

The Canonicals were not a group of prostitutes, although its probable Mary Kelly did little else to make money for herself. Hence the certificate. All the others can be fairly called Unfortunates, which was a term used to describe single women without work or support that resorted to prostitution when funds were needed for food and a place to sleep. Or booze. That describes Pollys situation the night she is killed, and Annies, but its not in the evidence that the 3 Canonicals that followed were in the same straights on the respective nights they died.

In fact in Marys case, we have evidence that although she is behind in her rent she still has a room to sleep in. And she ate her last evening.

There was no reason at all for Mary to go out again after arriving home at 11:45pm. She was drunk when she got home, she had eaten, and she accomplished that without selling herself that we know of. She probably could have just hung off some guys arm on Mayors day and had another free ride.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Hi DRoy, but if that was her profession that means that's how she earns living. This is assuming Kelly was a prostitute and not just resorting to only when no work is available. I thought Kelly working in a brothel previously was an indicator she had been working as a prostitute for some time, plus McCarthys building almost sounds like a brothel. If Kelly was a prostitute she's going to "work" and earn money, probably as much as she can. Think about the way drug addicted woman are trapped in a cycle of prostitution and you've probably got a similar scenario with Kelly and drinking/prostitution.

Rocky,

Barnett lost his job a few months earlier and nobody has said what Mary was doing for work so we can presume she had to resort to prostitution for both of them to survive. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

However, Mary no longer had to help support Barnett as he was now gone. She only had to work enough to keep McCarthy somewhat happy and ensure she had food and drink. She wouldn't have to work much to do those things. Especially not when she was already scared of the murderer and Barnett no longer around to protect her.

To suggest she all of sudden felt the need to work as much as possible doesn't make much sense, at least to me.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

She may have known that someone was coming to collect the overdue rent the following morning. Maybe her final chance to pay or she would be thrown out.

Azarna,

Welcome to Casebook!

I highly doubt she'd be thrown out if she didn't pay the debt, although I'm sure at some point McCarthy would toss her out if she stopped paying all together. Nothing to suggest that was the situation though. In fact she bought a candle from his shop that day so they could have dealt with the rent then.

That would be a very good reason to risk another client. And one who was going to get "the indoors experience" may well have paid more than the "quick fumble in a dark alley" type.

True, but again, she was scared of the murders so why the hightened risk taking for a few pennies more?

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

hi Droy
exactly what I have been saying. and if blotchy also gave her some money, she's got no reason to go out again.

Abby,

Agreed. We even could say that if Blotchy paid for her supper and booze, then she could use her prostituting money to pay rent. Still no reason to go out again.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.

Ok, so perhaps the client was not unknown? We have no indication either way. She may have known both Blotchy and Astrachan.
However, surely most of her clients were 'random', I don't think we should entertain the idea they made appointments.

She had a roof over her head and a bed to sleep in. She also had food and drink that night (even if it came from a customer as part or full 'payment', there was no reason to take him home).

No reason to take him home?
It was raining that night, why would she choose to perform in the rain when she has a room available?
Who bought her the food, Blotchy, Astrachan, or someone else?

News about the murders were read to her, she knew her home wasn't on a safe street nor in a safe area, and The Ripper was on the loose. Plus she bought a candle earlier that day.

Good enough reason's to take them home, afterall, the Ripper never struck indoors.