Did Mary know her killer?

[GUT]

Why would someone be outside screaming "murder murder!" Twice possibly 3 times at 4 am?

I have no idea why, what I know is that her evidence was that such cries were frequent, what part of that don't you get, this was not a one off t was a "FREQUENT" occurrence for such cries to be heard, so were all of these occurrences from Kelly's room???

[RockySullivan]

I have no idea why, what I know is that her evidence was that such cries were frequent, what part of that don't you get, this was not a one off t was a "FREQUENT" occurrence for such cries to be heard, so were all of these occurrences from Kelly's room???

How do you know elizabeth prater isn't just claiming that to justify her not going to help a woman screaming murder multiple times?

[GUT]

How do you know elizabeth prater isn't just claiming that to justify her not going to help a woman screaming murder multiple times?

Well if that's the criteria you apply how do you know that the cries weren't common and she actually heard nothing that night.

Read some history such cries were common.

[RockySullivan]

Well if that's the criteria you apply how do you know that the cries weren't common and she actually heard nothing that night.

Read some history such cries were common.

So Mary's neighbor here's someone Screaming MURDER two or three times...and in the morning Kelly is found butchered. Of course it would be so stupid to think the woman screaming murder was the murdered woman!

[lynn cates]

ambiguous

Hello Rocky.

"Of course it would be so stupid to think the woman screaming murder was the murdered woman!"

Not stupid at all--any more than thinking it was incidental.

Problem is--as with so much of the "evidence" in these murders--it is ambiguous.

Cheers.
LC

[RockySullivan]

Hi LC, indeed! I personally want to say I'd like to believe Maxwell that she saw Kelly that morning. But it's hard for me to believe it wasn't Kelly screaming murder. If Kelly was at the Britannia the people drinking there, bartender etc would've seen her and I can't see why they wouldn't come forward. A conundrum indeed

[Batman]

Maxwell, Kennedy, Hutchison are just getting there ten minutes of fame. Remove them and you have Cox and Lewis giving accounts that don't have MJK going out after coming home intoxicated and singing wildly enough to annoy neighbours. Anyone who thinks she went out again after such a state must assign some super human properties to the girl for doing that. If your drunk by midnight, at home, a few feet from your bed if not in it, then its lights out. The only person who is likely to have gone out and back again checking for possible witnesses is Blotchy who matches Lewis description of the man on Dorset street. He could go back into Mary's room anytime he wanted with the window trick.

Also are we to believe MJK an alcoholic didn't drink from the beer container he brought?

She was plastered and going nowhere. JtR victimology to a T.

[Robert]

Hi Batman

Eddowes was so drunk at 8.30 PM that she couldn't stand up, but she was released, sober, at 1 AM and probably could have been released at least half an hour earlier. Cox said Mary was very much intoxicated but also said this :

[Coroner] You say she was drunk ? - I did not notice she was drunk until she said good night.

In other words, Kelly was walking steadily.

Some people can handle drink better than others. We don't really know what was Kelly's tolerance for alcohol.

[DVV]

The only person who is likely to have gone out and back again checking for possible witnesses is Blotchy who matches Lewis description of the man on Dorset street.

True.
Lewis saw a man, and Blotchy was a man.
Problem is that if Lewis saw Blotchy, she can't have seen Hutch.
Unless Hutch was Blotchy.
But he wasn't.

[Michael W Richards]

So one of the soap opera cast knocks on Mary's door, she opens it and screams Oh Murder. And that's how we know she knew her killer? No I don't understand that.

But let me ask you this Michael - When somebody you know knocks on your door do you open it and scream Oh Murder? Often, or just sometimes

If you think of this situation in modern terms, sure, it wont make sense. The reality is that calls of "oh-murder", or "murder", in the LVP....often meant "oh-murder, Ive got dung on my shoes", or "oh-murder...I forgot my money purse",...in other words..it was more often used as an exclamation of annoyance rather than to alert people to an assault of some kind.

And to Jon, Mary was barely able to say hello to Mary Ann, then she sings off and on for over an hour before the lights went out....its eminently feasible to imagine she retired at that point.

Yes, she ate fish and chips, but there is no evidence that would contradict her eating that on the way home.

Cheers

[DVV]

Hi Robert

In other words, Kelly was walking steadily.

She was like these young boys in Under the Volcano's first chapter : the more she drank, the more steadily she walked.

Some people can handle drink better than others. We don't really know what was Kelly's tolerance for alcohol.

True. But I tend to agree with Batman on this one. I don't think she went out again after having entretained Mr PetiteVérole. Nobody saw her, no bartender remembered her that night... nobody, except Hutch.

[Batman]

An alcoholic goes to her room at 11:45am with a man carrying a pail of ale. We are to believe she didn't have any and left the room in a walking state after? She's got ger client. She's got her drink. She even has fish and pototoes to wash it down.

For Hutchinson to be true we need an alcoholic to be able to use fish and potatoes to sober up considerably, abstain from her clients drink, sing and walk out again with the capacity to find another punter and go back home.

All her factors without going out are optimal, except she doesn't know who she is really with.

Food - Yep
Booze - Yep
Client - Yep
Sing Song - Yep

What more does she want? Invite people down for a house party?

[Errata]

I think there is little to no evidence that Mary knew her killer well, if at all. But I think there may be quite a bit of evidence that the killer knew Mary well. Or at least thought he did.

[Robert]

Could you expand, Errata?

[Michael W Richards]

I think there is little to no evidence that Mary knew her killer well, if at all. But I think there may be quite a bit of evidence that the killer knew Mary well. Or at least thought he did.

Considering that there is no evidence that the killer entered the room from any other access point than the door, and that we hear of a cry from the "courtyard" that 2 people hear at 3:45 that is claimed by no living person, and since Mary is attacked while on the right side of the bed...on her right side... facing the wall, ..I would think that its almost a certainty that the killer was granted access to the room.

Making him a known person to Mary.

The only possible other access via the door is one that pre-supposes that the killer could open the door, walk across creaky floorboards that Mrs Prater stated allowed her to hear whenever Mary moved about in the room, sneak up onto the bed behind Mary, before she wakes,...and that possibility doesn't address who called out at 3:45 from the court. The windows are a non starter, I don't imagine that anyone could have seen the opportunity to open the door via the latch at almost 4am, Barnett seems to have an accepted alibi,..and even if they figured out the window method you still have the issue of egress without waking Mary. The call, as we know, didn't come from her room specifically...and the witness in the courtyard heard it "as if at her door", while Mrs Prater heard it "as if from the court". Which substantiates a person calling out from her room in the courtyard via the open door.

The safe money is on a scenario that the killer was either granted access to the room with her at 11:45, or she later granted him access.

Cheers