Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Abby Normal]

I have to say if I was a copycat killer and wanted to kill Mary for whatever reason and make it look like JTR. One of the things I would do is remove an organ or some part of her body since it was well known he took a kidney etc in previous murders. And less time flaying the top part of the right leg to the bone for instance since he never touched them in any other murder.
Unless of course, you think it was another maniac working in the vicinity at the same time as Jack. For it to be an ordinary murder and just covered up to make it look like Jack you have to ask yourself would he go to all that trouble to totally destroy the poor woman with the time and the danger involved? Or would he just cut Mary's throat, slit her open in the chest and take something and get the hell out of there.

well DK
its obvious that this copy cat killer knew all about escalation. ; )

[Batman]

But that is what makes the Kelly murder different from the rest.

Organs cut and ripped out, none taken away !
Body and face badly mutilated
No medical knowledge shown by the killer
Killed in a locked room

Can you please explain why you would think Kelly's "Body and face badly mutilated" is exclusive to Kelly and Kelly alone when it comes to the victims of JtR?

[Trevor Marriott]

I have to say if I was a copycat killer and wanted to kill Mary for whatever reason and make it look like JTR. One of the things I would do is remove an organ or some part of her body since it was well known he took a kidney etc in previous murders. And less time flaying the top part of the right leg to the bone for instance since he never touched them in any other murder.
Unless of course, you think it was another maniac working in the vicinity at the same time as Jack. For it to be an ordinary murder and just covered up to make it look like Jack you have to ask yourself would he go to all that trouble to totally destroy the poor woman with the time and the danger involved? Or would he just cut Mary's throat, slit her open in the chest and take something and get the hell out of there.

But that is what makes the Kelly murder different from the rest.

Organs cut and ripped out, none taken away !
Body and face badly mutilated
No medical knowledge shown by the killer
Killed in a locked room

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Darryl Kenyon]

I have to say if I was a copycat killer and wanted to kill Mary for whatever reason and make it look like JTR. One of the things I would do is remove an organ or some part of her body since it was well known he took a kidney etc in previous murders. And less time flaying the top part of the right leg to the bone for instance since he never touched them in any other murder.
Unless of course, you think it was another maniac working in the vicinity at the same time as Jack. For it to be an ordinary murder and just covered up to make it look like Jack you have to ask yourself would he go to all that trouble to totally destroy the poor woman with the time and the danger involved? Or would he just cut Mary's throat, slit her open in the chest and take something and get the hell out of there.

[Trevor Marriott]

Ah, so you don't believe MJK's killer was someone trying to make her mutilations look like the ripper's work?

Then at least we agree on that one, Michael.

Which frankly, only makes me more confused about who you think killed her and why, if not the same vile piece of work who did for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes, taking the opportunity to up his game to the unprecedented level we see in room 13.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
If we knew a motive it might lead us to her killer, and I also dont belive she was killed by the same hand as Chapman Eddowes and Nichols and that her murder was made to look like a Ripper killing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Then why did he cut out her entrails and appear to position them almost ritualistically?

The entrails were not cut from the body, they were simply outside the abdominal cavity and this suggestion of ritualistic positioning is another misleading fact started by ripper researchers.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[caz]

And copycats copy acts, they don't do something that had no previous precedent. Which taking a woman apart in her own room was, something without precedent.

Ah, so you don't believe MJK's killer was someone trying to make her mutilations look like the ripper's work?

Then at least we agree on that one, Michael.

Which frankly, only makes me more confused about who you think killed her and why, if not the same vile piece of work who did for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes, taking the opportunity to up his game to the unprecedented level we see in room 13.

Love,

Caz
X

[Harry D]

Absolute disinterest in any organ suggests a new man here, someone more intent on the curious wounds he inflicts rather than the obtaining of any "trophy".

Then why did he cut out her entrails and appear to position them almost ritualistically?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Darryl
Clearly both you and Sam are of the opinion that the killer removed the heart.This particular topic has been done to death on here over the past few years. I am not going to keep re-posting all the facts and evidence, which I seek to rely on to prove that the heart was not taken away, because that evidence is more reliable than the ambiguous statement of the doctor and several newspaper reports one of which you cite here, which I have to say is superseded by others all stating no organs were missing

The full review of all the facts and evidence about the Kelly murder and the others can be found in my book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper...revor+marriott

I would think Trevor that if the above position is accurate, then for me that closes the book on whether or not this man killed Polly and Annie..or Kate. Absolute disinterest in any organ suggests a new man here, someone more intent on the curious wounds he inflicts rather than the obtaining of any "trophy".

I hesitated with Kate above because some of her wounds I find quite curious as well.

[Trevor Marriott]

Also Sam from East London Observer
Saturday, 17 November 1888.
THE WHITECHAPEL HORRORS
Latest Details
The mutilations were of a revolting description - the throat being deeply cut, the abdomen ripped open, many of the entrails taken out, a certain organ being reported missing, and the fleshy portion of the cheeks, breasts, and thighs hacked away

Hi Darryl
Clearly both you and Sam are of the opinion that the killer removed the heart.This particular topic has been done to death on here over the past few years. I am not going to keep re-posting all the facts and evidence, which I seek to rely on to prove that the heart was not taken away, because that evidence is more reliable than the ambiguous statement of the doctor and several newspaper reports one of which you cite here, which I have to say is superseded by others all stating no organs were missing

The full review of all the facts and evidence about the Kelly murder and the others can be found in my book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-Truth-Trevor-Marriott-ebook/dp/B06ZY63JXJ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541578789&sr=8-1&keywords=trevor+marriott

[Darryl Kenyon]

Strictly speaking, "the pericardium was open from below and the heart absent", which is subtly different, in that it can be parsed as two statements. Namely (1) the pericardium was open, and (2) the heart was missing. It was certainly not accounted for in his inventory of the organs and other body parts placed on the mattress, under the head and on the bedside table.

Also Sam from East London Observer
Saturday, 17 November 1888.
THE WHITECHAPEL HORRORS
Latest Details
The mutilations were of a revolting description - the throat being deeply cut, the abdomen ripped open, many of the entrails taken out, a certain organ being reported missing, and the fleshy portion of the cheeks, breasts, and thighs hacked away

[Sam Flynn]

In relation to Kelly the term used by the doctor was "the heart was absent from the pericardium" He doesn't go onto say, and it was never found

Strictly speaking, "the pericardium was open from below and the heart absent", which is subtly different, in that it can be parsed as two statements. Namely (1) the pericardium was open, and (2) the heart was missing. It was certainly not accounted for in his inventory of the organs and other body parts placed on the mattress, under the head and on the bedside table.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Mary Cox had known Mary for eight months, if blotchy was the other Joe who Mary was fond of or any other man she had regularly kept company with, Mary Cox might have known/recognized him but she didn't. Also, Mary may have introduced her partner [as was the custom], [if it was someone she was fond of], when she spoke to Mrs cox but again she didn't. Just a thought.

[c.d.]

Hello CD,

When I made this post (four years ago? crikey!), I must admit to playing devil's advocate. I have little doubt that the same individual who killed Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes was behind Kelly's murder. All attempts to shoehorn Kelly's lovelife and her elusive identity into the motive behind her death fall short imo. Yes, the Ripper's crimewave may have inspired "Ripper-like" copycats. There was Jane Beadmore in Gateshead and Ellen Bury in Dundee, that appear to be crimes of passion trying to imitate the Whitechapel fiend. But for one such murder to occur in the same square mile as the rest of them, following the same escalation in violence, it can only lead you to one logical conclusion.

Hello Harry,

Yes, I too noticed the time frame of your post. Crikey! is right.

I have said it before and I will say it again. You are one of the most clear headed posters on these boards. Well, most of the time anyway.

c.d.

[c.d.]

And could this man still be hutch?

Hello Abby,

Could it have been Hutch? Absolutely. Do I think it was? No. I go with the police on that. Could they have been wrong? Yes. Not much more to say.

c.d.