Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[Batman]

"While falling" is a possibility raised by the medical examiner. As for the others standing, I don't think its ruled out by any contradictory evidence. A slit throats spray can be controlled by simply tilting the chin to the chest and pressing down immediately after the cut. Doesn't seem that was the case oin all the cases, but it could have been in some. Anyone claiming that all the victims were prone when cut....see tweets from the Batcave...is just taking a stand, its not following any evidence.

Why would he do that? What purpose does this serve?

First of all, a few of the ripper victims have double cuts to their necks and more. In short, more than one attempt is made to cut their throats.

I strongly doubt any forensic pathologists are supporting this view that a severed carotid artery's blood flow can be stemmed from spraying by immediately tilting the head down.

The heart-pumping 350ml of blood under pressure (130+ mm Hg) through the carotid artery is instantly going to send the blood through any weak spots it can. You can even put pressure on that wound and it's going to be spraying out between fingers and any openings it can as experienced I am sure by tens of thousands of war veterans who have had to do just that.

I just don't see how this even avoids blood down their front.

Dr. Brown with Eddowes pointed out the following.

No spurting of blood on the bricks or pavement around. No marks of blood below the middle of the body. Several buttons were found in the clotted blood after the body was removed. There was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I think he understood the significance of saying there was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I know a lot of people don't want the C5 to include some victims, but the prostrate slicing of their necks is a strong connection given that most of these types of attacks are rear approaches while the target is standing.

JtR wasn't like that. That makes him identifiable. He struck when they were down.

[Batman]

e. Had Joe Barnett still been sharing her bed and able to support her financially, I doubt she would have taken 'paying guests' back and been murdered as a result. I imagine poor Joe had a hard time coming to terms with that.

Let's take the view that JtR knew MJK but Barnett was in the way. If the man she invited back to her home was someone she knew, then this suggests that JtR knew MJK intimately prior to Barnett or JtR was someone on the side.

It could have some explanatory power over why JtR while waiting for her, went elsewhere to find other victims in the meantime.

If this is the case, then MJK knew JtR before Nichols at the least, if not Tabram, if not Smith.

So MJKs life prior to those murders would be quite relevant in this context.

[Abby Normal]

Why would he do that? What purpose does this serve?

First of all, a few of the ripper victims have double cuts to their necks and more. In short, more than one attempt is made to cut their throats.

I strongly doubt any forensic pathologists are supporting this view that a severed carotid artery's blood flow can be stemmed from spraying by immediately tilting the head down.

The heart-pumping 350ml of blood under pressure (130+ mm Hg) through the carotid artery is instantly going to send the blood through any weak spots it can. You can even put pressure on that wound and it's going to be spraying out between fingers and any openings it can as experienced I am sure by tens of thousands of war veterans who have had to do just that.

I just don't see how this even avoids blood down their front.

Dr. Brown with Eddowes pointed out the following.

No spurting of blood on the bricks or pavement around. No marks of blood below the middle of the body. Several buttons were found in the clotted blood after the body was removed. There was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I think he understood the significance of saying there was no blood on the front of the clothes.

I know a lot of people don't want the C5 to include some victims, but the prostrate slicing of their necks is a strong connection given that most of these types of attacks are rear approaches while the target is standing.

JtR wasn't like that. That makes him identifiable. He struck when they were down.

including Stride?

[Batman]

including Stride?

Yeah, I would think so.

[Wickerman]

There is one significant dissimilarity between the murder of Eddowes and Chapman which in my opinion shows that the organs from both were not removed by the same person.

If you remove Kelly from the equation on the basis that no organs were taken from her. then it makes the theory that the killer removed the organs even weaker,........

Trevor.

Not too long ago we had another debate about whether Kelly's heart was removed.
Dr. Bond wrote: "heart absent".
Where the conventional view is that he meant the heart was missing, not found - so it was taken away.

Though you insisted "absent" only meant from the body cavity.

Read what Dr. Brown said about the organs taken from Eddowes.

"The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found."

https://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

Do we agree now on what "absent" means?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor.

Not too long ago we had another debate about whether Kelly's heart was removed.
Dr. Bond wrote: "heart absent".
Where the conventional view is that he meant the heart was missing, not found - so it was taken away.

Though you insisted "absent" only meant from the body cavity.

Read what Dr. Brown said about the organs taken from Eddowes.

"The uterus was cut away with the exception of a small portion, and the left kidney was also cut out. Both these organs were absent, and have not been found."

https://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

Do we agree now on what "absent" means?

No we dont, Dr Brown was right in what he said, but he was referring to the uterus and the kidney being found missing at the post mortem of Eddowes, which we know is correct

In relation to Kelly the term used by the doctor was "the heart was absent from the pericardium" He doesn't go onto say, and it was never found, which is what he would have said if your comparisons are to be believed. Dr Bond also makes no mention of it not being found.

Dont forget Insp Reid stating that all the organs were accounted for !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

And could this man still be hutch?

Hello Abby,

Could it have been Hutch? Absolutely. Do I think it was? No. I go with the police on that. Could they have been wrong? Yes. Not much more to say.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD,

When I made this post (four years ago? crikey!), I must admit to playing devil's advocate. I have little doubt that the same individual who killed Nichols, Chapman & Eddowes was behind Kelly's murder. All attempts to shoehorn Kelly's lovelife and her elusive identity into the motive behind her death fall short imo. Yes, the Ripper's crimewave may have inspired "Ripper-like" copycats. There was Jane Beadmore in Gateshead and Ellen Bury in Dundee, that appear to be crimes of passion trying to imitate the Whitechapel fiend. But for one such murder to occur in the same square mile as the rest of them, following the same escalation in violence, it can only lead you to one logical conclusion.

Hello Harry,

Yes, I too noticed the time frame of your post. Crikey! is right.

I have said it before and I will say it again. You are one of the most clear headed posters on these boards. Well, most of the time anyway.

c.d.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Mary Cox had known Mary for eight months, if blotchy was the other Joe who Mary was fond of or any other man she had regularly kept company with, Mary Cox might have known/recognized him but she didn't. Also, Mary may have introduced her partner [as was the custom], [if it was someone she was fond of], when she spoke to Mrs cox but again she didn't. Just a thought.

[Sam Flynn]

In relation to Kelly the term used by the doctor was "the heart was absent from the pericardium" He doesn't go onto say, and it was never found

Strictly speaking, "the pericardium was open from below and the heart absent", which is subtly different, in that it can be parsed as two statements. Namely (1) the pericardium was open, and (2) the heart was missing. It was certainly not accounted for in his inventory of the organs and other body parts placed on the mattress, under the head and on the bedside table.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Strictly speaking, "the pericardium was open from below and the heart absent", which is subtly different, in that it can be parsed as two statements. Namely (1) the pericardium was open, and (2) the heart was missing. It was certainly not accounted for in his inventory of the organs and other body parts placed on the mattress, under the head and on the bedside table.

Also Sam from East London Observer
Saturday, 17 November 1888.
THE WHITECHAPEL HORRORS
Latest Details
The mutilations were of a revolting description - the throat being deeply cut, the abdomen ripped open, many of the entrails taken out, a certain organ being reported missing, and the fleshy portion of the cheeks, breasts, and thighs hacked away

[Trevor Marriott]

Also Sam from East London Observer
Saturday, 17 November 1888.
THE WHITECHAPEL HORRORS
Latest Details
The mutilations were of a revolting description - the throat being deeply cut, the abdomen ripped open, many of the entrails taken out, a certain organ being reported missing, and the fleshy portion of the cheeks, breasts, and thighs hacked away

Hi Darryl
Clearly both you and Sam are of the opinion that the killer removed the heart.This particular topic has been done to death on here over the past few years. I am not going to keep re-posting all the facts and evidence, which I seek to rely on to prove that the heart was not taken away, because that evidence is more reliable than the ambiguous statement of the doctor and several newspaper reports one of which you cite here, which I have to say is superseded by others all stating no organs were missing

The full review of all the facts and evidence about the Kelly murder and the others can be found in my book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-Truth-Trevor-Marriott-ebook/dp/B06ZY63JXJ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541578789&sr=8-1&keywords=trevor+marriott

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Darryl
Clearly both you and Sam are of the opinion that the killer removed the heart.This particular topic has been done to death on here over the past few years. I am not going to keep re-posting all the facts and evidence, which I seek to rely on to prove that the heart was not taken away, because that evidence is more reliable than the ambiguous statement of the doctor and several newspaper reports one of which you cite here, which I have to say is superseded by others all stating no organs were missing

The full review of all the facts and evidence about the Kelly murder and the others can be found in my book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper...revor+marriott

I would think Trevor that if the above position is accurate, then for me that closes the book on whether or not this man killed Polly and Annie..or Kate. Absolute disinterest in any organ suggests a new man here, someone more intent on the curious wounds he inflicts rather than the obtaining of any "trophy".

I hesitated with Kate above because some of her wounds I find quite curious as well.

[Harry D]

Absolute disinterest in any organ suggests a new man here, someone more intent on the curious wounds he inflicts rather than the obtaining of any "trophy".

Then why did he cut out her entrails and appear to position them almost ritualistically?

[caz]

And copycats copy acts, they don't do something that had no previous precedent. Which taking a woman apart in her own room was, something without precedent.

Ah, so you don't believe MJK's killer was someone trying to make her mutilations look like the ripper's work?

Then at least we agree on that one, Michael.

Which frankly, only makes me more confused about who you think killed her and why, if not the same vile piece of work who did for Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes, taking the opportunity to up his game to the unprecedented level we see in room 13.

Love,

Caz
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