The missing key?

[Wickerman]

Here is one of the better resolution pics we have, though I'm not sure it will look 'better' on a forum.



The top right pane (of the smaller window), appears to have a darker middle as if there is a large hole.

Now here is another rendition in the negative which shows that same top right pane with a lighter shade in the middle.
(lighter, because this is a negative)



That said, if you look at both the lower two panes, I think we can see differences in light & dark in both the lower left pane & the lower right pane.
So whether these differences in shade indicate anything certain is hard to say.

[GUT]

Hi All

This is just a theory................

13 Millers Court was described as small. I think there is an assumption that both windows were part of Kelly's room. Could it be possible that the bigger window of the two was not in Kelly's room?

Everyone has argued that the pic was taken outside because of the lack of space. Now looking at the angle of the picture in which it was taken, could it be possible that there was a window next to the door facing the bed?

Sounds nuts but thought I would throw another possibility out there. The places where the windows are situated look weird anyway.

G'day Natasha

Considering the room is either 12x12 or 12x10 [depending on the source] I think the answer has to be a resounding NO.

I don't think that "everyone" has argued that as the reason for taking the picture from outside, indeed in a room 12X10 it would be have been entirely possible to take a photo inside as anyone who knows anything about photography will attest.

And yes there has been a lot of discussion about the placement, and sizes, of the two windows and it is not something you would expect to see in a modern building, personally I think that the answer s likely to have been renovations to the building at some stage, but that is nothing more than my opinion.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Amanda.
I think you are missing the point.

It isn't what we can or cannot see in a photo that is older than the both of us put together, we are lucky it survived at all.

Two witnesses identified the broken pane, Bowyer & Dr. Phillips.

Two panes were broken, they were both in the smaller window, the window nearest the downspout on the corner.

Bowyer identified the lower pane furthest from the corner as the one he looked through. The other broken pane was one of the upper two, which one we do not know.

Is the photo then after a repair? or is it the photo's age that dose not let us see the other brake?
Also just so I get this right the lower pain was damaged due to a fight? the reason I ask is I have lived in houses with these windows and as long as you can get to the sash lock which you could do by the upper pain then the lower half should slid up.

[Natasha]

Hi All

This is just a theory................

13 Millers Court was described as small. I think there is an assumption that both windows were part of Kelly's room. Could it be possible that the bigger window of the two was not in Kelly's room?

Everyone has argued that the pic was taken outside because of the lack of space. Now looking at the angle of the picture in which it was taken, could it be possible that there was a window next to the door facing the bed?

Sounds nuts but thought I would throw another possibility out there. The places where the windows are situated look weird anyway.

[Wickerman]

Hello Harry D,

It seems that some people are determined to stick to one idea, and don't like it to be shifted. I believe you are quite right about Barnett and the whole idea of the window is nonsense. Can you see a broken pane at the bottom of the window? I can't.

Amanda.
I think you are missing the point.

It isn't what we can or cannot see in a photo that is older than the both of us put together, we are lucky it survived at all.

Two witnesses identified the broken pane, Bowyer & Dr. Phillips.

Two panes were broken, they were both in the smaller window, the window nearest the downspout on the corner.

Bowyer identified the lower pane furthest from the corner as the one he looked through. The other broken pane was one of the upper two, which one we do not know.

[Wickerman]

Amanda
Have a look at my 3D models of Miller's court / No.13. You will see the lower window glass of the small window is broken. I've also posted some CGI images to demonstrate how easy it would have been to reach through the broken glass and unlock the door. In the 3D CGI's you can see that it's not really a stretch to reach the lock from outside the window.

Here's a picture and there are loads more online somewhere:
EDIT: Here's a link to more images:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7233&page=2

Richard.
I believe the pane furthest away from the corner was the one broken, you have the arm through the nearest pane.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Joe's story makes no sense, and how could any DC take that and not test if it could be done? and not see a lie and then put him in a room with some skull crackers and sweat him? or did they have someone and there just going through the motions with Joe?

[Amanda Sumner]

Amanda ,

The one image I recall showing two panes broken is the cover illustration to 'Famous Crimes'. How reliable that was, I'm not sure .

MrB

Thank you MrBarnet,
I don't know how reliable that was either...

I downloaded an image of Miller's Court, tweaked it, and it seemed to show clearly the one broken pane, but for some reason cannot upload it on here. Why is that? I just want to put the theory to bed, really. If there were two broken panes, one at the bottom, then maybe Barnett was telling the truth. How the police failed to notice though, beats me!

Cheers, Amanda

[MrBarnett]

Amanda ,

The one image I recall showing two panes broken is the cover illustration to 'Famous Crimes'. How reliable that was, I'm not sure .

MrB

[lynn cates]

he gave; he took away

Hello Harry. Thanks.

"Perhaps Barnett should've kept his mouth shut but he was being grilled by the police as a potential suspect and would've done anything to take the heat off himself in that situation."

I can see that. But why concoct a lie about the key when he implicates himself after all?

"No doubt they quizzed him on who had access to 13 Miller's Court."

I believe that.

"Let's assume that the window trick was a lie, which might be the case seeing as Barnett never saw fit to suggest this to the police as they twiddled their thumbs outside before deciding to break the door down."

Was he there whilst they waited?

"Neither did the landlord etc."

Now that McCarthy lied makes sense. After all, he averted implication, nor did he indicate he knew how to access the room.

"Therefore Barnett concocted a story about the key going "missing" and the two of them reaching through the window to access the room. . ."

I can believe the lie about the key, but why not just say, "I don't know how she got in. But on those occasions when I dropped by, she was inside and so it was a moot point."?

Cheers.
LC

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Amanda,

One could get the impression that the police already had a good idea of who the Ripper was at this point, which is why the inquest into MJK's murder was a little...rushed, shall we say?

I get the impression that they seemed extremely careless and, yes, rushed, but not sure if they knew who it was. Maybe there was an element to get things done as quickly as possible because there were crowds spilling into the street outside. People were getting angry and frightened and wanting answers.
The treatment of the crime scene was particularly reckless, although to be fair, there was little for them to go on. There does not seem to be many records that have survived. It would have been interesting, for example, to have had a list of the clothes on that chair and a better study of what was exactly in that fireplace. I am puzzled too, by the lack of personal possessions.I know these people were poor but did they really only have the clothes they stood in? No obvious sign of a child living there,either, although we know one did.
Have you had a chance to look at the photo of the dwelling? It would be nice to have the pane debate put to bed. I would also like to know where the story of the string comes from. I've not heard of that before.

Amanda

[Harry D]

Hello Harry D,

It seems that some people are determined to stick to one idea, and don't like it to be shifted. I believe you are quite right about Barnett and the whole idea of the window is nonsense. Can you see a broken pane at the bottom of the window? I can't. It is odd that the police did not question it, or perhaps they did, but were satisfied that Barnett was not their man. Kelly lived with a child in that room, unbelievably,I know, and mostly overlooked, but I can't imagine her leaving them both open to potential danger if it was that easy to open the door. If there had been an easier way in the police would not have had the door broken down.

Hello Amanda,

One could get the impression that the police already had a good idea of who the Ripper was at this point, which is why the inquest into MJK's murder was a little...rushed, shall we say?

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Harry D,

It seems that some people are determined to stick to one idea, and don't like it to be shifted. I believe you are quite right about Barnett and the whole idea of the window is nonsense. Can you see a broken pane at the bottom of the window? I can't. It is odd that the police did not question it, or perhaps they did, but were satisfied that Barnett was not their man. Kelly lived with a child in that room, unbelievably,I know, and mostly overlooked, but I can't imagine her leaving them both open to potential danger if it was that easy to open the door. If there had been an easier way in the police would not have had the door broken down.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry. Thanks.

I suppose I am missing something simple, but, at this point, it feels like this.

Suppose some bloke is a person of interest in an axe murder case. The police ask to search his house and he allows it. "You see. No axes." "Right. Sorry to have troubled you sir." "Um, care to see my collection of hatchets in my car?"

Should have kept his mouth shut.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Perhaps Barnett should've kept his mouth shut but he was being grilled by the police as a potential suspect and would've done anything to take the heat off himself in that situation. No doubt they quizzed him on who had access to 13 Miller's Court. Let's assume that the window trick was a lie, which might be the case seeing as Barnett never saw fit to suggest this to the police as they twiddled their thumbs outside before deciding to break the door down. Neither did the landlord etc. Therefore Barnett concocted a story about the key going "missing" and the two of them reaching through the window to access the room, even though MJK was apparently scared of the Ripper she was seemingly happy to live in a room where a burglar or worse could enter by reaching through the window?

The key was never missing. MJK let herself in with it that night and the Ripper took it with him after butchering her corpse.

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello CD. Precisely.

Cheers.
LC