The missing key?

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Everyone is forgetting the report of a piece of string near that vicinity , that was usually present , but not that morning, according to the report, one could tell if Kelly was present in the room, and it saved friends knocking , they just went straight in.....
Is it not possible , that the length of string was visible it meant she was out, and if not visible in...It could have been attached to the lock, ,and when she went out , it could be seen, and she would use it to gain entry, and when she was in, it was not visible , and attached internally ..
I know I am rambling. but no one ever takes that report into consideration..
Regards Richard.

[GUT]

Here's a Goads Plan showing No. 26 Dorset St.
As you can see the back room where Mary lived was slightly wider than it is deep.

Thanks Jon

wonder if the difference can be accounted for by the cupboard and fireplace being along the wall adjoining 25, so one measurement is wall to wall and one wall to cupboard, I don't think it matters a lot might add 6" or so to the space between window and door.

Also at the end of the corridor, near Mary's door the Goad Map seems to show a door, or am I reading the plan wrong?

[Wickerman]

Here's a Goads Plan showing No. 26 Dorset St.
As you can see the back room where Mary lived was slightly wider than it is deep.

[Wickerman]

Well, I think we can be reasonably certain that the width of a house was not 12ft, that is far too narrow for a house.
Even 15ft is narrow but I think it is the safest dimension to use of the two, for the width (window wall).
The door wall is the depth, for this I would use the 12ft dim.

[GUT]

Hey, its all guesswork when you get right down to it

We have two sizes for the room, in one press account it is 12 x 12, in another it was given as 12 x 15.

I've also seen one as 12X10, I forgot the 12X15, I am also unsure as to which is the shorter dimension if it is not square.

So as said it is all guess work.

[Wickerman]

G'day Jon

Not sure if it was by you and Bob but I did see a summary at one stage based on brick size, the only problem is brick sizes have changed over the years, but in such a small room it's not going to make a real big difference. fully accept that my summary above was not scientific but still submit that in a room 12X12 or 12X10 it wasn't a long reach from that window to the door.

Hey, its all guesswork when you get right down to it
Though we did use a brick size from the period.

We have two sizes for the room, in one press account it is 12 x 12, in another it was given as 12 x 15.

[GUT]

Many years ago, late 90's I think it was, Bob Hinton constructed a physical mock-up of that window & its relationship to the door. All the dimensions used to size the door, and window, and their relationship to each other, were taken from the dimensions of the standard house brick, plus the typical width of the cement line between.

At the time I was discussing this with Bob I was employed in the Engineering Dept. for Westinghouse and was able to use AutoCad to create a three dimensional image for this exercise using the same house brick dimensions.
Don't ask me what they were now, its too long ago

Anyhow, both Bob and I worked on the same assumption (same as Richard), that the broken pane was the nearest to the corner.
I don't work with AutoCad anymore so I'm not able to repeat the exercise for this "furthest" pane.

G'day Jon

Not sure if it was by you and Bob but I did see a summary at one stage based on brick size, the only problem is brick sizes have changed over the years, but in such a small room it's not going to make a real big difference. fully accept that my summary above was not scientific but still submit that in a room 12X12 or 12X10 it wasn't a long reach from that window to the door.

[Wickerman]

Just my 2p worth.

Many years ago, late 90's I think it was, Bob Hinton constructed a physical mock-up of that window & its relationship to the door. All the dimensions used to size the door, and window, and their relationship to each other, were taken from the dimensions of the standard house brick, plus the typical width of the cement line between.

At the time I was discussing this with Bob I was employed in the Engineering Dept. for Westinghouse and was able to use AutoCad to create a three dimensional image for this exercise using the same house brick dimensions.
Don't ask me what they were now, its too long ago

Anyhow, both Bob and I worked on the same assumption (same as Richard), that the broken pane was the nearest to the corner.
I don't work with AutoCad anymore so I'm not able to repeat the exercise for this "furthest" pane.

[GUT]

Hi GUT.

I'm glad you asked because this same question occurred to me, so I had to make sure we have Bowyers perspective correct.

In his opening statement to the court, and in reference to the broken pane, Bowyer said:

"I went round the corner and there was a broken window in the farthest window."
Official Record.

Then, the next witness Charles Ledger brought a plan of the room into court, and Bowyer corrected his previous statement:

"I refer to plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one."
Official Record.

So this correction helps us identify which pane he meant. We can now see that when he first said "window", he meant "pane".

Also, we can use his direction of movement as confirmation. Bowyer moved from the door, around the corner, towards the two windows. So once he turned the corner the smallest window is "nearer" to him, and therefore one lower pane is also nearer, and the other is obviously further.
So, in the smallest window, the "farthest pane" is the one on the left (as viewed from outside), not the one next to the drainpipe.

This must confirm that it was the left side pane (as we look at the photo), and not the right side pane which has traditionally been assumed to be the one used for access.

G'day Jon

Personally I agree with your summation and have always thought that it was the lower left as we look at it, but I have also been bemused by his reference to the farthest window, in his first sentence you quote, if [and I don't think it to be so] he was referring to the small window as the farthest window, t makes the pane on our right the farthest pane.

I hope that makes sense.

I guess what I am trying to say, in a nutshell is that while I believe it is the lower left can see room for confusion, in any event I would suggest that the lock would have been accessible whatever pane it was.

[Wickerman]

The only thing that has always bothered me about Bowyer's evidence is "furthest from where", furthest from the door, or furthest from the other window. I think the most logical is the one on our left but I am not totally convinced.

Hi GUT.

I'm glad you asked because this same question occurred to me, so I had to make sure we have Bowyers perspective correct.

In his opening statement to the court, and in reference to the broken pane, Bowyer said:

"I went round the corner and there was a broken window in the farthest window."
Official Record.

Then, the next witness Charles Ledger brought a plan of the room into court, and Bowyer corrected his previous statement:

"I refer to plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one."
Official Record.

So this correction helps us identify which pane he meant. We can now see that when he first said "window", he meant "pane".

Also, we can use his direction of movement as confirmation. Bowyer moved from the door, around the corner, towards the two windows. So once he turned the corner the smallest window is "nearer" to him, and therefore one lower pane is also nearer, and the other is obviously further.
So, in the smallest window, the "farthest pane" is the one on the left (as viewed from outside), not the one next to the drainpipe.

This must confirm that it was the left side pane (as we look at the photo), and not the right side pane which has traditionally been assumed to be the one used for access.

[GUT]

When you look at the photo Jon posted in post #67 I tried to work out the width of the window, if that side of the room is 12ft, we know there was a cupboard in the corner and the space between the two windows is 12-18" it appears plus say 6" between the small window and the corner.

That makes the two about 9ft in total, the larger one is about twice the size of the smaller one so the small window is only 2ft 6 to 3 ft wide, thus from the middle of that window it's only about 2 to 2 1/2 ft to the corner, not really a big stretch.

IF, and it is a big If, the sketch of MJK entering the room is anything like accurate it looks [an this is open to debate I admit] that she could easily reach the far pane of the small window from the door, just comparing her arm with the gap she would need to span.

Just my 2p worth.

[GUT]

The only thing that has always bothered me about Bowyer's evidence is "furthest from where", furthest from the door, or furthest from the other window. I think the most logical is the one on our left but I am not totally convinced.

Even if it is, as I suspect, the one on the left it isn't a long stretch to the lock, remember that the room in total was only 10-12 ft and it puts the size of the smaller window into context.

[Wickerman]

I have an Idear why the photo may not show a lower damaged pane, would it not make sense that if you made regular use of it to open the door they may have remover the last remaining parts of the glass so as not to get scagged by it?

Hi PC.

The jagged glass may have actually been there, did you read this in the Times?
" Accordingly Bowyer .......... passed round the angle of the house and pulled the blind of the window, one of the panes being broken. Then he noticed blood upon the glass,.."

Why would there be blood on the glass?

...

Doctor Phillips tells us two panes in that smaller window frame were broken, and he looked through the lower one.

Bowyer tells us the furthest pane of the lower two was the one he looked through.

Abberline tells us that Barnett claimed to reach through the broken pane to push back the latch.

Was Barnett referring to the upper broken pane, or the lower broken pane?

If he had to reach through the upper pane (at right?), surely he would need to kneel on the window sill to be able to reach through the hole?
What would he hold on to while doing this?

Perhaps the drain-pipe?
Maybe that is why the lower half of the drain-pipe is bent towards the window?

[richardh]

Hi Richard.

I entirely agree with what contemporary images show, but they do not agree with the Inquest testimony.

Can you see if you can place the lower broken window next to the corner by using the Inquest testimony alone?

That why have we all jumped to the obviously erroneous conclusion it was the lower right pane that was used to access the door lock?

Geez! I gotta get the glaziers in now to update all my 3D stuff now!

[Wickerman]

Hi Richard.

I entirely agree with what contemporary images show, but they do not agree with the Inquest testimony.

Can you see if you can place the lower broken window next to the corner by using the Inquest testimony alone?