The missing key?

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi.
We should not forget that Barnett and Kelly devised a method to get in that room , it was a piece of string, that was apparently attached to the bolt, and it was rumoured that neighbours knew by that string, whether she was in her room or not. and used to enter instead of knocking....
How true, and how it worked no idea,,but if it was attached to the spring lock it might explain how they managed to avoid cutting themselves....
Regards Richard.

Where did you find that out? First I've heard of any techniques. Barnett stated to the police that they reached in through the window and unfastened the door, no mention of string, I think. Clearly, that would still have been difficult if there was only broken glass in the top pane.

GUT - I have looked again at several photos and there appears to be no broken panes at the bottom.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=612

https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=h p&biw=1366&bih=677&q=13+millers+court&oq=millers+c ourt&gs_l=img.1.3.0l3j0i5j0i24l2j0i10i24j0i24l3.48 69.9788.0.11829.13.13.0.0.0.0.92.423.13.13.0....0. ..1ac.1.51.img..0.13.419.XXs0YzCX4nA&gws_rd=ssl#fa crc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=R5Cl3zeAHeDJLM%253A%3BM1o04dt M-4gmfM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%25 2Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F6%252F60%252FMiller's_ Court_No.13.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia. org%252Fwiki%252FDorset_Street%252C_London%3B306%3 B291

[Amanda Sumner]

G'day Amanda

But there were two broken panes one upper and one lower.

Are you sure Gut? In every photo I've seen the hole in the window is in the top pane on the right of the photo. Some pictures are clearer than others but I've not seen any broken glass at the bottom. My apologies if that's the case, then Barnett may not be lying at all. I'll have another study of the photo and come back.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
We should not forget that Barnett and Kelly devised a method to get in that room , it was a piece of string, that was apparently attached to the bolt, and it was rumoured that neighbours knew by that string, whether she was in her room or not. and used to enter instead of knocking....
How true, and how it worked no idea,,but if it was attached to the spring lock it might explain how they managed to avoid cutting themselves....
Regards Richard.

[markmorey5]

Barnett told them how to get in by reaching through the broken window, and the room was quite small so it should have been possible to reach the spring latch through one of the broken window panes. It doesn't appear as if McCarthy knew of the technique or else he wouldn't have broken down his own door. The women who shared the room with Kelly also knew how to release the lock through the window and probably some of the residents of Millers Court, so there were a number of people who had that knowledge.

The technique of unlokcing the door through the window may or may not have had some bearing on Kelly's murder. Similarly the lost key may have been involved, although it could have been misplaced when Kelly or Barnett were drunk.

[GUT]

Indeed, so Barnett said, but as I said, looking at the photo of Miller's Court, the broken pane is too high to have done so. Barnett lied about that to explain the missing key, but I don't believe it was missing at all.

G'day Amanda

But there were two broken panes one upper and one lower.

[GUT]

I'm not sure how many people have ever looked at a lock from the 1880s I grew up in a house built in the 1930's and can assure you that a blind man could probably have opened that lock without a key and over the years have looked at numerous older locks and almost without exception they ddn't take a lot of skill to open without a key.

[Amanda Sumner]

I could be wrong but I thought that both Joe and Mary let themselves in after the key was lost by reaching through the window and opening the door.

c.d.

Indeed, so Barnett said, but as I said, looking at the photo of Miller's Court, the broken pane is too high to have done so. Barnett lied about that to explain the missing key, but I don't believe it was missing at all.

[c.d.]

Of course there is a possibility that Mary let him in, so there was no need for a key at all. If the killer then took the key on his way out and then later Barnett lied to police that it had been missing for some time, then this could go a long way to explaining what happened.
There is no way that anyone could have unlocked the door from the window, the broken pane was too high, but what is odd is that the police did not check his story out. I believe that had he admitted that the key existed, he could well have been accused of murder
As I have said before, I don't think he was JtR, in fact i'm quite certain of it, but whatever the truth, the police were satisfied with his statement and let him go.

I could be wrong but I thought that both Joe and Mary let themselves in after the key was lost by reaching through the window and opening the door.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I keep seeing posts where people speculate that Mary knew her killer as if that fact alone is quite significant and has a bearing on her murder and the case itself. But we need to keep in mind that knowing someone is not the same as having a personal relationship with that person. For instance, I know the garage attendants in my apartment building but I don't really have a personal relationship with them. As far as Mary "knowing" her killer, it could have been someone she first met earlier that day.

Also, I will give Sam Flynn credit for his comments regarding the missing heart. Sam rightly pointed out that there is a big difference in the symbolic love and romantic meaning attached to the heart as opposed to holding a slimy, bloody, stinking organ in your hand.

c.d.

[Amanda Sumner]

Of course there is a possibility that Mary let him in, so there was no need for a key at all. If the killer then took the key on his way out and then later Barnett lied to police that it had been missing for some time, then this could go a long way to explaining what happened.
There is no way that anyone could have unlocked the door from the window, the broken pane was too high, but what is odd is that the police did not check his story out. I believe that had he admitted that the key existed, he could well have been accused of murder
As I have said before, I don't think he was JtR, in fact i'm quite certain of it, but whatever the truth, the police were satisfied with his statement and let him go.

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

OK. But why is the key necessary? If he knew her, he would likely know HOW to get in.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

I suppose so, if he knew her then yeah he would know. If he didn't and was stalking her then he may have witnessed how she got in & out of the house.

So yeah not so necessary

[lynn cates]

how

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

OK. But why is the key necessary? If he knew her, he would likely know HOW to get in.

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

I have said before that I think the killer was known to the victim, I just wanted to take a look at a different scenario.''

Excellent idea.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

Thanks

The problem is how the killer was able to get the key if he didn't know them personally (I don't buy the window trick, or the latched lock etc) Maybe he had been watching Barnett also, and perhaps had nicked the key.

[lynn cates]

did

Hello Mr. B. And DID.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

entrance

Hello Harry. Thanks.

Very well. I see what you mean. But did he not compromise such vindication when he told how to gain entrance?

Cheers.
LC