Johnto - an idea

[curious4]

Re passports

http://m.guardian.co.uk/travel/2006/nov/17/travelnews

Passports were not generally required for travel abroad until the first world war.

Cheers,
C4

[Wickerman]

Hi Debs.

I guess we are just at a loss for a direction to go.
The most obvious solution, as you are aware, is that her true name was not Mary Kelly, but how helpful is that?

If it was not her real name, then she assumed it, and what better identity to assume than a real one?
The real identity of a person you knew, or grew up with, someone who's family details and history would role off the tongue quite naturally. This obviously doesn't involve memorizing every aspect of a fake life, its all true, its just not your life, someone else's life.
Someone you knew.
I seem to recall suggesting this before?

Given that two of the, arguably, best results turned up are the Kelly's from Flint, and from Brymbo, a clue may lay with these families. Particularly, in my opinion, the fact that 'Mary Kelly' claimed to be Irish, moved to Wales before 16, had one sister and 6 or 7 brothers, the very basic details which fit Mary Kelly from Brymbo, yet this Mary Kelly is clearly alive and well.

This isn't so much wild speculation as a progression of logic. If the name fits, her age, and the family history fits (broadly), then we have to ask if the victim in Millers Court actually knew Mary from Brymbo?
I think that is a reasonable question.

For example, this suggested cousin in Cardiff, who lived the 'bad' life, is worth looking into. Did Hubert Kelly, or his wife Mary, have a brother or sister in Cardiff in the 1880's?

Who else could know Mary's life better than her own cousin, and did she disappear?

Is there any better direction to follow, given all the dead ends?

[lynn cates]

assumed names

Hello Jon. Also, many assumed names were cognomen only. First name was retained.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Also, many assumed names were cognomen only. First name was retained.

Cheers.
LC

Thanks Lynn, yes, which speaks to the same reason, the need to avoid memorizing a knew first name, the name most often used.

It seems a shame to just drop it, but if you recall, Alice McKenzie could not be traced either, so we need not look to intrigue for a solution.

[Phil H]

My understanding of aliases is that they usually relate to the original name in some way i.e. the initials are the same but used to stand for different names. Albert Smith, becomes Arthur Sydney, as an example. Also that the background is at least rooted in reality even if details are changed - it make remembering the fiction easier.

Phil

[lynn cates]

list

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Of course, the list of anomalies involving "MJK" is long and a bit convoluted.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
It is a fact that passports/identification papers were in place in 1888, mainly for emigration/immigration .
I agree that for travelling purposes they were generally not common until the first world war...for obvious reasons.
So for Mrs McCarthy to have her passport and for her son to have seen it is not unusual, Irish immigrants to mainland Britain Especially.
Regards Richard.

[curious4]

Passports

Hello Richard,

Going by the article, but as Mary was a small child when the family came over, wouldn't she be included on her father's/mother's papers? Standard practice until at least fairly recently. Would she have had any reason to get her own passport? Not necessary for a trip to France and I should think it would have been expensive. Also from the article, the standard blue passport only came into use in the 1920s, so would whoever was said to have seen it recognise it as a passport? Just asking. Identity papers are not the same as a passport.

Cheers,
C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi Curious,
I would hazard a guess and suggest that Fiona's grandfather saw some form of identification, and called it a passport when relaying that sighting at a later date.
Regards Richard.

[curious4]

Passport

Hello Richard,

Yes, I think you are right, that sounds reasonable.

I did find a reference to irish immigrants to england, saying that up to 1920 no passports were required as ireland was considered part of england.

Best wishes,
C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
That being the case, then exactly what documentation was seen ? why can't the whole Kelly saga be less complex?
Regards Richard.

[curious4]

Mystery woman

Hello Richard,

Yes, she does seem to be the original mystery woman! However, if I were to be right about her lying about her age, perhaps we should cast our nets a little wider?

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

without a trace

Hello Richard.

"Why can't the whole Kelly saga be less complex?"

Don't know. But it began almost immediately she died. Paper could not trace her even then.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

If MJK's brother was serving under an assumed name (nom de guerre)

There was a time in the US when you had to be born in wedlock to serve in the military, and since any legal paper with your name on it had the word "illegitimate" either written or stamped next to it, it was hard go escape, but it was one reason men enlisted under false names. The other was to enlist when they were underage. They'd usually enlist as someone else, not under an entirely false name.

Was it ever the case in Britain that you had to be born in wedlock to serve?

The most obvious solution, as you are aware, is that her true name was not Mary Kelly, but how helpful is that?

If it was not her real name, then she assumed it, and what better identity to assume than a real one?

That makes sense, but she runs a risk, assuming the life of someone who is still around to want it back, so Mary Jane Kelly, whoever she was, was probably dead in 1888. Maybe our MJK knew her in France, or knew her back in Wales. It might explain the married name question, if the woman who died in Miller's Court, whatever her original name was, did once marry someone named Davis/Davies, but wasn't using either that name or her maiden name, because she was using Kelly's names.

If you are right, then maybe the confusion about MJK having a child is because the original Mary Jane Kelly did have a child, who obviously wasn't with the imposter, but she still included the child in telling the background story she'd assumed. That seems sort of bone-headed, but who knows what she was thinking?

Hi Curious,
I would hazard a guess and suggest that Fiona's grandfather saw some form of identification, and called it a passport when relaying that sighting at a later date.
Regards Richard.

+1

[Bridewell]

Does anyone think there is a possibility that 'Johnto' might not have been in the Scots Guards but in the Royal Scots?

I only ask because I've found a James Henry Kelly who enlisted in April 1886, aged 18 years and 1 month and so was presumably born in March 1868. He was born in the County of Tipperary, Parish of St Bridgets. I can't read the town. Looks as though it begins with L & ends with K. I guess it's not Limerick. Looks like Lanerlack or something similar. When I've got a bit more time I'll see if I can post the image (if someone can tell me how to reduce the size to below the Casebook limit please).