Johnto - an idea

[Wickerman]

This is an example where we see the tendency to string words together, and the "Johnto" squeezed in at the edge of the page.

[Wickerman]

Here's an example of a word squeezed in to the point of bending the word around to make it fit. The 'k' (of o'clock) appears to be almost perpendicular to the edge of the page.

[curious4]

Ladies' privilege

Hello all,

I still think that Mary lied about her age. Provided all her stories had some truth in them, it seems to me unlikely that she would have had time for everything within a time-span of only seven or eight years - married, widowed, prostitute in Cardiff, hospitalised for tb (must have been for months, if not a year), spell in a west-end brothel, France and back (although that may only have lasted only a short time) moving from address to address and man to man and finally ending up in Dorset Street.

Women were kept on in high-class brothels until the customers had grown tired of them. Perhaps this is when Mary began her downhill slide, but she could well have spent up to a year there at least, especially if she was popular.

Considering that Polly and Liz at least were said to have looked some years younger than they were, despite child-bearing and much harder lives, I would put Mary's age at nearer 35 than 25.

Speculation, yes - but using what we are told about Mary's history, also considering that she most probably omitted a few facts which were unflattering or uncomfortable.

This would also bring her nearer the age of Jack's other victims.

Best wishes
C4

[RivkahChaya]

It's also possible Mary didn't even know her exact age.

Phil, I'm a little surprised you won't entertain a move for a fresh start after a remarriage after divorce, or something else relatively simple, but that was frowned upon back then, but you go right to something like the Fenians.

If I were writing a book, I'd write something like Mary being born out of wedlock, while he father was married to someone else, and then divorce and remarriage, and a move from Ireland to Wales, and lying about dates and ages, so her birth would be after the marriage. All of that is perfectly innocent, and it's done so that your kid doesn't get shunned at school, but it ends up making people hard to trace if you wind up wanting to for some unrelated reason.

If MJK were working at a West End brothel, but then started showing symptoms of active pulmonary TB, would they dismiss her for that? I really don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Of all her stories, I'm most skeptical of the one about being married to someone named Davies who was killed in a mine. I don't know why she would go back to her maiden name. On the other hand, if she were going to make up a story, you'd think she'd bolster it with a detail like a married name. I wonder if the story were made up on the spot to get sympathy on a particular occasion, and then she was stuck with it.

[curious4]

TB

Hello Rivkah,

She was treated in Cardiff, before she moved to London.

Best wishes,
C4

[Phil H]

Phil, I'm a little surprised you won't entertain a move for a fresh start after a remarriage after divorce, or something else relatively simple, but that was frowned upon back then,

The only reason I don't buy into it is that there isn't a shred of evidence to support it Rivkah. It's not that its not possible, just that why should we accept that view rather than 1,000 others.

Like Mary went on the game and her family disowned her. That her brothers were in the army and did not want to be associated with someone like her. Or Mary married someone the family disapproved of...

but you go right to something like the Fenians.

I offered a number of options, and specifically said:

"were somehow involved in a cover-up, Fenian or something else, and the mystery enigma relates to that. ..."

The phrase "or something else" surely indicates that I attach no particular importance to it. But it has been one theory about MJK, replacement victims etc. Hence my use of that example.

Phil

[Debra A]

Hi Jon,
Thanks for posting those other pics-I'm still not convinced mind!
but just say you were right...what difference would it make in the long run if Henry was known as John too? We still have Barnett saying he was in the Scots Guards and their records are quite complete and have been searched for any Kellys who's details may fit ( you were there for part of it,you had input?) why didn't we find John too,either?
Richard has mentioned Fiona Kendall's claims that the coppers found him in the regiment-so what are we doing wrong?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
Thanks for posting those other pics-I'm still not convinced mind!
but just say you were right...what difference would it make in the long run if Henry was known as John too?

I sometimes wonder myself Debs, we engage in these conjectures, which, in many cases can never be proven

We still have Barnett saying he was in the Scots Guards and their records are quite complete and have been searched for any Kellys who's details may fit ( you were there for part of it,you had input?) why didn't we find John too,either?

It is known that soldiers did enlist when under age, and because of this they often used an assumed name. That fact is a matter of record.
I don't have any answers, I can only offer things to consider.

Richard has mentioned Fiona Kendall's claims that the coppers found him in the regiment-so what are we doing wrong?

Well, maybe the police were given his enlisted name?, or maybe it wasn't the Scots Guards, Barnett had the name wrong?
There were only three regiments of Guards in 1888, Coldstream, Grenadier & Scots (as opposed to five regiments today).
I don't know Debs, I'm not denying its a tough nut to crack. Given all the sources who knew Mary Kelly and who we endlessly quote, I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the details they gave were in error.

[lynn cates]

Only believe.

Hello Debs.

"Richard has mentioned Fiona Kendall's claims that the coppers found him in the regiment-so what are we doing wrong?"

Believing stories about coppers?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Richard has mentioned Fiona Kendall's claims that the coppers found him in the regiment-so what are we doing wrong?

Is that Fiona "I know who Jack the Ripper was" Kendall? If so, I think I know where the error is.

Mike

[Phil H]

If MJK's brother was serving under an assumed name (nom de guerre), there are surely two possibilities as to how the police identified him which are not available to us today:

a) he came forward voluntarily; perhaps as the representative of the family and to shield the others;

b) Barnett or someone who had seen him (McCarthy?) identified him (and the details were on a now lost file).

Given that all those involved are now deceased, neither of those avenues are open to us. But they would have been in 1888. So maybe we are doing nothing wrong - but "Johnto" is now invisible.

Identifying him would, of course, not be particularly important in regard to the case - it might have given the police some information/insight into MJK's background and life - so retetntion of the file might not have been too vital.

On the other hand, some purloined material has turned up, so i suppose one day old MJK-related files might be found in some attic.

Phil

[Debra A]

Hi all,
Jon, I think you once gave a figure for the number of men who enlisted under a false name and the figure wasn't that large? A couple of records I looked at also documented that fact within them so that some were discovered to be using false names and their real name included in their files also makes the figure smaller? How annoying it would be if not only MJK is untraceable in the records given the details we have, but her brother also enlisted using a different name-making him totally untraceable too!!
Henry not being in he 2nd Battalion Scots guards but a different regiment would also be another one of those annoying blips if he was in a different regiment and also using a different name!

We seem to have got to he stage where we are now mulling over and discussing the idea that police did trace the family and they preferred no publicity but as far as I can tell there isn't much to base that idea on apart from Fiona Kendall Lane's claims that's what happened?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
At Least now we are talking about Fiona's recollections, which we are assured came from her grandfather[ McCarthy's son] and family history.
It is quite clear,that as she clearly recollects the knowledge, that her great grandmother parcelled up Kelly's belongings and sent them to the brother in the army she would have had an inkling to who she was sending to?
She via her husband, via the police, may have picked up the vibes that the brother was not overjoyed with being associated with all this , albeit agreed to receive the parcel, [ which I am sure was forwarded on to her Mother.
Fiona's grandfather insisted that he saw Kelly's passport[ much of Casebook disputed this at the time, and we have to discuss the merit in this].
Although it has been a few years now, I stoutly believe that the good lady was informing Casebook in good faith, and her patience with us became short-lived, when the ''put up.. or shut up'' approach came about.
This happened also with J.D Hutchinson[ daughter in law to Topping's younger brother].
Such a shame that we never experienced more insight from these good people, who wrote to Casebook in good faith, and I for one was extremely anxious to hear more....but
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

...and I for one was extremely anxious to hear more....but
Regards Richard.

It certainly would have been very useful to hear more as the McCarthy's must then have known MJK's correct name if they saw her passport? Maybe Fiona would have been told it too? Then we could check the idea that her brother was in the Military too-presuming he didn't give a false name , of course.

[lynn cates]

. . . he said, archly.

Hello Debs.

"How annoying it would be if not only MJK is untraceable in the records given the details we have, but her brother also enlisted using a different name-making him totally untraceable too!!"

Very acute question. And so you can see why my eyebrows are perpetually arched.

Cheers.
LC