The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[Debra A]

So we have two different addresses Eccles Place and Eccles Lane two different families with the same name?

Have you read RJ Palmers posts in #34 #44 both seem to conflcit with your posts.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I have reproduced the primary source material that I have used to make my own conclusion that Alice Carroll of Phoenix Park fame married soldier Frederick White and died in an asylum and that she had been in prison and was described as having brown hair. If there is an alternative ID of Alice Carroll of the right age, right place and with a cab man for a father then her records shouldn't be hard to dsicover and can also be posted here for comparison. I know she had a cousin a couple of years older or younger with the same name.

At the time of the Phoenix Park murders, Alice, the witness, said she lived at 13 Lower Eccles Lane and 13 Lower Eccles Lane is given as the address of the Alice Carroll recorded in prison records as having brown hair (ditto maks recorded from previous entry as I recall) in Grangegorman Prison. She also said she was born at 4 Eccles Lane, a different address, showing the family moved around.
The same family can clearly be seen to have moved around the same streets of Upper and Lower Eccles Lane and different addresses so I wouldn't rule out a move to Eccles Place. It's the same area. It was only a couple of streets away from the place William Wallace Brodie's brother lived with his family and I've just been posting about him elsewhere if we are talking coincidence.

I also found an article that said Alice Carroll had become Alice Mooney, that's at least five different marriages given for Alice in the newspapers! RJ's find of her said to have married a soldier named Smith in 83 fits perfectly, perhaps they lived together before marrying in 87?
I think there was some added detail about Alice's family when Meiklejohn barged his way in to her house when she was supposed to be under police protection. I'll have to read that again.
I'm open to any discussion of the ID if someone can show that it is wrong with primary source material.

[Trevor Marriott]

Here's the 1901 census that shows Alice's father Patrick living at Eccles Place and listed as a cab owner:

So we have two different addresses Eccles Place and Eccles Lane two different families with the same name?

Have you read RJ Palmers posts in #34 #44 both seem to conflcit with your posts.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

And finally
Alice's 1866 birth cert showing her father as Patrick Carroll, mother Mary White of Eccles Lane a cab driver and also the birth certificate of Alice's brother Thomas, b 1876 and listed on the 1901 census with the family that I posted earlier to show Patrick's occupation was later a cab owner, as Patrick, the father of Alice Carroll on the marriage cert I posted was.

[Debra A]

Here's the 1901 census that shows Alice's father Patrick living at Eccles Place and listed as a cab owner:

[Debra A]

RJ,

There were at least three Alice Carrolls who fell foul of the law in Dublin in the 1880s. Two of them, your Coombe example and one from Eccles Lane, had been born in 1866. The other was younger, so we can ignore her.

The two 1866 candidates were different heights and weights, one (Coombe) was a ‘dealer’ and the other (Eccles Lane) had no occupation. Clearly different women.

The 1887 press report that identified the AC charged with abusive language as the Phoenix Park witness gave her address as 13, Eccles Lane and said she had no occupation. This same woman - same name, age, address and lack of occupation - had been imprisoned in 1886 for the same offence. The Coombe lady had numerous convictions.

Unless there were two AC’s of the same age living in Eccles Lane and the reporter got them muddled up, it seems probable that the 1887 woman was indeed the Phoenix Park witness. The idea that a journalist would play a ‘joke’ by identifying the wrong woman seems highly unlikely.

Gary

That's right Gary, the Eccles Lane link was how I made the connection to the Alice Carroll of Phoenix Park fame:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...234#post247234

February 15, 2013, 01:32 PM
description

The description of Alice Carroll from the Grangegorman prison records in 85/86 say she is age 20, 5ft. 4.5in. with blue eyes and fair hair. The address of Lower Eccles lane and birthplace of Eccles Lane tying in to Alice Carroll, witness, known through the Phoenix park related trials.

[Debra A]

Hi all
Re Alice Carroll: Below is the last bit of research I did on Alice Carroll when I found she apparently married a man named Smith and died in an asylum in Dublin in 1898.
Posted July 9, 2017, 11:15 PM on JTRForums


I think I may have finally discovered what happened to Alice Carroll after the last documented mention of her name in the Dublin newspapers in September 1887.


We know that Alice was born on the 28th April 1866 at 64 Eccles Lane in Dublin to Patrick Carroll and his wife Mary, nee White.

After looking at a few possible marriages for women named Alice Carroll in Dublin, I managed to find a marriage for an Alice Carroll in Dublin whose father was named Patrick:

1887
Marriages solemnized at Register Office City of Dublin
Entry 222
On 8th oct 1887
Groom -Frederick James Smith, full age, batchelor, corpral 4th Dragoons, residence Royal Barracks, father Robert Smith, worker
on stock exchange
Bride -Alice Mary Carroll, full age, spinster, living 28 Barrack St, father Patrick Carroll cabowner.[Alice's father Patrick Carroll did own and run a cab]

Unfortunately the age of the Alice Carroll in this marriage was not given, although she was 21 or over as 'full age' means.
Alice Carroll of Phoenix Park fame would have turned 21 on 28th April 1887, so no dicrepancy so far.

The next record for who I believe is the same woman given her name, age and status as married to a soldier is from the Dublin workhouse records:

Alice Smith, 24, [b 1866] married wife of a soldier, Roman Catholic, resident ECity (?) Brown's Cottages, admitted 9th April 1890, discharged 13th Aug 90
to RL Asylum[ Richmond Lunatic asylum]

Dublin workhouse 1890, South Dublin Union
Workhouse number 4457
Description So Dublin Poor Law Union Admission + Discharge BG 79/G 69
Piece Workhouse admission and discharge records, v. G book 69 (24 December 1889, no. 2201) - v. G book 73 (22 November 1892, no. 4040)



There is also just one other workhouse entry for this same woman the following year in 1891:

Alice Smith, 25. married, no occupation, Roman Catholic, resident Richmond S Asylum, admitted 20 July 1891, died 4th April 1898
[b 1866]

So Dublin Poor Law Union Admission + Discharge BG 79/G 69
Piece Workhouse admission and discharge records, v. G book 69 (24 December 1889, no. 2201) - v. G book 73 (22 November 1892, no. 4040)

I was then able to locate the death certificate for Alice Smith in April 1898 aged 31:

South Dublin
Deaths Registered 1898
44 G April 3rd 1898 workhouse, Alice Smith from Richmond Lunatic Asylum, female, married, 31 years, cause of death pthisis
Dementia Certified. Registered 9th April 1898
The informant was an official who informed on all the deaths on that particular page.

The Oct 1887 marriage would explain why Alice appears to have 'disappeared' after Sept 1887 as some have suggested because her name no longer appeared in the newspapers as Alice Carroll.

I previously found that Alice's sister, Mary Jane emigrated to New York, she married a man also named Fanning in Dublin (Alice Carroll's fiance was supposed to be a policeman named Fanning) shortly before she left and had a child in 1889, baptised in Dublin, there is no church record of the marriage although there is a baptismal record for their son. I passed this information on to the family a few years ago.

[mpriestnall]

I once participated in a company quiz night in the Great Eastern Hotel. I’m talking 40+ years ago, and I’m not sure if it was in HH itself, but it was a very large room with high ceilings and OTT plasterwork.

I’ve been back and forth to Dorset recently. Back there again next week. Hopefully a week or so after that, I can pop up to Liverpool Street. I’ve been wanting to poke my head into Crooked Billet Yard which was ‘Biddy the Chiver’s’ last address for ages.

Okey dokey.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks Gary. When I suggested the idea I didn't actually have any examples myself, so I appreciate you and Ms Diddles providing support for the idea.

Martyn

PS Apparently Hamilton Hall used to be a ballroom which would account for those nice high ceilings! Source: A recent Wetherspoon's magazine.

I once participated in a company quiz night in the Great Eastern Hotel. I’m talking 40+ years ago, and I’m not sure if it was in HH itself, but it was a very large room with high ceilings and OTT plasterwork.

I’ve been back and forth to Dorset recently. Back there again next week. Hopefully a week or so after that, I can pop up to Liverpool Street. I’ve been wanting to poke my head into Crooked Billet Yard which was ‘Biddy the Chiver’s’ last address for ages.

[mpriestnall]

My wife is another example. From an army family, she grew up in Yorkshire, Newcastle, Belfast, London (and Cyprus). Her accent was impossible to pin down when I first knew her. After decades of living in Essex/East London it’s similar to mine now, but she occasionally lapses into a bit of ‘eh up’.

Thanks Gary. When I suggested the idea I didn't actually have any examples myself, so I appreciate you and Ms Diddles providing support for the idea.

Martyn

PS Apparently Hamilton Hall used to be a ballroom which would account for those nice high ceilings! Source: A recent Wetherspoon's magazine.

[MrBarnett]

This account claims Alice Carroll had actually married Smith as early as Nov 1883 and was escorted to Oz. Perhaps they returned to Dublin when the coast was clear and held a ceremony?





This is one of the reasons I have questioned whether the "Alice Carroll" supposedly of No. 13 Eccles Street, arrested and imprisoned in 1886/1887 was really the Phoenix Park informer.

Wouldn't her name have been Alice Smith, and her address likely to have been somewhere else? It could have been her, but there are oddities to all of these news reports

There’s also a report where it was suggested she had married a man named Byrne. You may be right about false info being deliberately inserted in the papers.

I looked into the female witness to the 1887 marriage, Josephine Woodfine, on the off chance that we could ID her as a friend/family member of AC’s. But it appears she was the daughter of a sergeant of the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, which was the groom’s regiment.

[rjpalmer]

This account claims Alice Carroll had actually married Smith as early as Nov 1883 and was escorted to Oz. Perhaps they returned to Dublin when the coast was clear and held a ceremony?





This is one of the reasons I have questioned whether the "Alice Carroll" supposedly of No. 13 Eccles Street, arrested and imprisoned in 1886/1887 was really the Phoenix Park informer.

Wouldn't her name have been Alice Smith, and her address likely to have been somewhere else? It could have been her, but there are oddities to all of these news reports

[MrBarnett]

I dont know where it came from thats why I was asking, but Alice Carroll was 17 in 1883 and so in 1888 she would have been 22.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You describe it as ‘unconfirmed information’. I’m just wondering if your source is of a higher calibre than a contemporary Irish press report.

I believe Debra has already pointed out that Alice’s prison record gives her hair colour as ‘brown’.

[MrBarnett]

Not to mention that Fanning family has Alice marrying a Frederick James Smith in Dublin, 8 October 1887, and dying in the Richmond Lunatic Asylum (Dublin) eleven years later.

Yes, I think it was Debra who provided Fanning with those details. Her suggestion that the Phoenix Park AC married a soldier in late 1887 and ended her life in Richmond Asylum in 1898 works for me.

But this isn’t a topic I’ve spent much time researching. It was your earlier mention of The Coombe and Mountjoy that piqued my interest. They both have family resonance for me and the Coombe, of course, has a connection to Dr Timothy Killeen.

[Trevor Marriott]

You know full well that the suggestion came from a contemporary press report.

Where did you obtain this ‘known fact’ from, Trevor?

“Carroll was described as having bright, golden-red, hair and very pretty blue eyes, as did Kelly.”

I dont know where it came from thats why I was asking, but Alice Carroll was 17 in 1883 and so in 1888 she would have been 22.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[rjpalmer]

Wasn’t it the case that she didn’t receive the money until she was ‘of age’ - presumably 21? So we’re talking about her becoming financially independent in April, 1887. How can that be squared with her starting life with Joseph Barnett in Spitalfields at around the same time?

Not to mention that Fanning family has Alice marrying a Frederick James Smith in Dublin, 8 October 1887, and dying in the Richmond Lunatic Asylum (Dublin) eleven years later.