The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[Debra A]

She also testified to being born & raised in Lower Eccles Lane, and being the oldest child, with three sisters and two small brothers, which aligns with the family tree.

The only discrepancy I noticed is that the Fannings have Alice with five sisters, but it looks like two of them were never traced further than the baptismal records, so it's possible they may have died before the 1883 trial.

I can't see there being any real doubt that this is the same woman.

Thanks RJ
I appreciate yours and Gary's considered feedback on this,

[Trevor Marriott]

The onus is on you to prove the ID wrong

There has been enough posted on this thread to cast a doubt as previoulsy stated, and where is Alices sworn testimony?

I haven't checked because I believe it is modern conjecture. Anyone familiar with genealogical records would know just how common the name McCarthy was in East London alone.

and the name is no more common in Ireland than the names Kelly, and Carroll but a direct connection between the two McCarthys would be a game changer.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[rjpalmer]

The father of Alice Crroll was a cabman according to Alice's sworn testimony

She also testified to being born & raised in Lower Eccles Lane, and being the oldest child, with three sisters and two small brothers, which aligns with the family tree.

The only discrepancy I noticed is that the Fannings have Alice with five sisters, but it looks like two of them were never traced further than the baptismal records, so it's possible they may have died before the 1883 trial.

I can't see there being any real doubt that this is the same woman.

[Debra A]

There are so many ambiguites that it is a case of no one is going to say you are totally wrong, but in my opinion it falls short of conclusivley saying you are right.

Have you checked to ascertain if the Mcarthys who owned the shop near to Eccles Lane were related to the Millers Court McCarthys? that might be a game changer?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The onus is on you to prove the ID wrong.

I haven't checked because I believe it is modern conjecture. Anyone familiar with genealogical records would know just how common the name McCarthy was in East London alone.

[Debra A]

Interesting discussion here and a lot has cropped up that coincides with some of my research. Take this for what you will, but I have sources for all of this if anyone is interested in them. Not sure where to start so I'll throw out pieces based on what is being discussed here.

-Lord Edward Cavendish (brother of Frederick Cavendish, murdered in Phoenix Park) was a client of Charles Hammond and implicated in the Cleveland Street Scandal.

-John Meiklejohn was armed with warrants to run down and arrest those involved in the Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884. Those that fled to London. This scandal was very similar to the Cleveland Street Scandal.

-As Debs pointed out, Thomas Collins Brodie (brother of self professed murderer of Alice McKenzie, William Wallace Brodie) at one time lived a few streets away from Eccles Lane.

-On September 6, 1888, William Wallace Brodie sailed as a third class passenger from England to South Africa aboard the Athenian. He had just been released from prison and had secured lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. If that address sounds familiar, it is. It's the same address he went to when he returned from South Africa in 1889 a few days before the Alice McKenzie murder. Also living at that same address was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame.

-Coincidentally, also on board the Athenian on that trip, leaving for a 5 month vacation to visit a clergy brother near the Bulfontein Mines in South Africa, was Lady Cavendish (Frederick Cavendish's widow) and her brother Spencer Lytlleton.

-Brodie secured work at the Bulfontein Mines.

-I have mentioned to Debs in the past that maybe William Wallace Brodie was the brother of MJK? He was discharged with bad character from the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards in 1876 under the alias William Pigott. I have no further evidence to substantiate the claim.

All just food for thought.

Side Note: I did not see Brodie's name on the list of passengers included in the paper. Lady Cavendish and her brother were on the list. I should probably order the Ship manifest for the Athenian but I took the word of the detective in the case at the time (forgot his name) that said he checked the records and found them to be accurate with what Brodie stated

Thanks Jerry, some interesting coincidences there.

[Debra A]

The second entry shows the occupation as a carman not a cab driver!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

They're the same man with a wife of exactly the same name Mary White! At one time he was a carman or cabman and at some point before 1901 he obviously bought cab of his own to become a cab owner. The father of Alice Crroll was a cabman according to Alice's sworn testimony

[jerryd]

Interesting discussion here and a lot has cropped up that coincides with some of my research. Take this for what you will, but I have sources for all of this if anyone is interested in them. Not sure where to start so I'll throw out pieces based on what is being discussed here.

-Lord Edward Cavendish (brother of Frederick Cavendish, murdered in Phoenix Park) was a client of Charles Hammond and implicated in the Cleveland Street Scandal.

-John Meiklejohn was armed with warrants to run down and arrest those involved in the Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884. Those that fled to London. This scandal was very similar to the Cleveland Street Scandal.

-As Debs pointed out, Thomas Collins Brodie (brother of self professed murderer of Alice McKenzie, William Wallace Brodie) at one time lived a few streets away from Eccles Lane.

-On September 6, 1888, William Wallace Brodie sailed as a third class passenger from England to South Africa aboard the Athenian. He had just been released from prison and had secured lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. If that address sounds familiar, it is. It's the same address he went to when he returned from South Africa in 1889 a few days before the Alice McKenzie murder. Also living at that same address was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame.

-Coincidentally, also on board the Athenian on that trip, leaving for a 5 month vacation to visit a clergy brother near the Bulfontein Mines in South Africa, was Lady Cavendish (Frederick Cavendish's widow) and her brother Spencer Lytlleton.

-Brodie secured work at the Bulfontein Mines.

-I have mentioned to Debs in the past that maybe William Wallace Brodie was the brother of MJK? He was discharged with bad character from the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards in 1876 under the alias William Pigott. I have no further evidence to substantiate the claim.

All just food for thought.

Side Note: I did not see Brodie's name on the list of passengers included in the paper. Lady Cavendish and her brother were on the list. I should probably order the Ship manifest for the Athenian but I took the word of the detective in the case at the time (forgot his name) that said he checked the records and found them to be accurate with what Brodie stated

[Debra A]

Hi Debs.

This is what I thought, too, but as strange as it may appear, I now think the report I posted is most likely a red-herring, and it's nothing other than a strange coincidence. The report states she married a fellow Phoenix Park informer named Smith and went with him to Australia, and, as you have shown, Alice Carroll did indeed marry a Frederick Smith in 1887

The trouble is, the Phoenix Park informer who was hustled down to Australia was not Frederick Smith, but Joseph Smith. He was a laborer inside Dublin Castle, had joined the Irish Invincibles, played a small role in the assassinations, and then turned state's evidence. Further, it was reported that the informer Joseph Smith eventually returned to the UK and died in London in 1885, so he couldn't be Frederick James Smith. (see below).

There is a long and detailed article on the Phoenix Park informers sailing to Australia in 1883, published in The Flag of Ireland, and, rather suggestively, it states nothing about Alice Carroll being among the passengers on that voyage.

I suppose it is possible that Joseph Smith the informer and Frederick Smith the soldier were somehow related, and Alice Carroll met one through the other, but I haven't looked into it.

Personally, I have no doubt you found the same Alice Smith, and she died in the asylum. I'm more interested in some of the oddities of the news accounts surrounding her, and what they might tell us about misinformation in the press when dealing with anything to do with Irish Nationalism. I wonder if the claims that Alice was married to a policeman was just local gossip, a way of insinuating that she was 'in' with the police. The William Kelly she was supposedly associated with was simply the local beat constable, as far as I can tell.

Here's one report of Joseph Smith's death in 1885



By the way, I noticed that there was another Carroll family living in Eccles Lane in the early 1880s, but it was No. 13 Upper Eccles Lane, and I've found no evidence there was any 'Alice' in the immediate family. Maybe a relative, or just a name coincidence?

Thanks RJ
I did trace Alice's sister Mary Jane Carroll who 'married' a man named Fanning. At least one Irish newspaper had Alice's fiance as a policeman named Fanning. I had at one time wondered if he was the policeman and the press had become mixed up between the girls. The couple had a son in Dublin and then emigrated to New York where their descendants were in the NYPD.
The girl at 12 Upper Eccles Lane is interesting. There were close relatives in the same area, as I mention, Alice herself had a cousin named Aliced Carroll (I believe it was their grandmother's name but forget now) who was a couple of years older or younger.

I do recall, but can't find it now, that Alice gave her exact age in her sworn testimony (x years and x months, or x months from her x birthday, something like that) it would be useful if anyone can find that again as Alice was born 28 April 1866 and this could then be compared. A more precise age other than about 17 was definitely given in one source at least.

I will have a look at the Meiklejohn case in 84 concerning him getting to Alice and see what extra information there is on the family. The security surrounding Alice was apparently very lax despite her claiming her life had been threatened many times, as Meiklejohn showed.

[MrBarnett]

Again conjecture on your part

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Says the man who suggests two clearly bogus press reports contradict Debra’s detailed genealogical research.

[rjpalmer]

RJ's find of her said to have married a soldier named Smith in 83 fits perfectly, perhaps they lived together before marrying in 87?

Hi Debs.

This is what I thought, too, but as strange as it may appear, I now think the report I posted is most likely a red-herring, and it's nothing other than a strange coincidence. The report states she married a fellow Phoenix Park informer named Smith and went with him to Australia, and, as you have shown, Alice Carroll did indeed marry a Frederick Smith in 1887

The trouble is, the Phoenix Park informer who was hustled down to Australia was not Frederick Smith, but Joseph Smith. He was a laborer inside Dublin Castle, had joined the Irish Invincibles, played a small role in the assassinations, and then turned state's evidence. Further, it was reported that the informer Joseph Smith eventually returned to the UK and died in London in 1885, so he couldn't be Frederick James Smith. (see below).

There is a long and detailed article on the Phoenix Park informers sailing to Australia in 1883, published in The Flag of Ireland, and, rather suggestively, it states nothing about Alice Carroll being among the passengers on that voyage.

I suppose it is possible that Joseph Smith the informer and Frederick Smith the soldier were somehow related, and Alice Carroll met one through the other, but I haven't looked into it.

Personally, I have no doubt you found the same Alice Smith, and she died in the asylum. I'm more interested in some of the oddities of the news accounts surrounding her, and what they might tell us about misinformation in the press when dealing with anything to do with Irish Nationalism. I wonder if the claims that Alice was married to a policeman was just local gossip, a way of insinuating that she was 'in' with the police. The William Kelly she was supposedly associated with was simply the local beat constable, as far as I can tell.

Here's one report of Joseph Smith's death in 1885



By the way, I noticed that there was another Carroll family living in Eccles Lane in the early 1880s, but it was No. 13 Upper Eccles Lane, and I've found no evidence there was any 'Alice' in the immediate family. Maybe a relative, or just a name coincidence?

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, Trevor, they are 10 years apart! Carman/Cab Driver/Cab Owner seems a perfectly plausible career progression, especially if you came into a little money through your daughter.

Again conjecture on your part

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

I have reproduced the primary source material that I have used to make my own conclusion that Alice Carroll of Phoenix Park fame married soldier Frederick White and died in an asylum and that she had been in prison and was described as having brown hair. If there is an alternative ID of Alice Carroll of the right age, right place and with a cab man for a father then her records shouldn't be hard to dsicover and can also be posted here for comparison. I know she had a cousin a couple of years older or younger with the same name.

At the time of the Phoenix Park murders, Alice, the witness, said she lived at 13 Lower Eccles Lane and 13 Lower Eccles Lane is given as the address of the Alice Carroll recorded in prison records as having brown hair (ditto maks recorded from previous entry as I recall) in Grangegorman Prison. She also said she was born at 4 Eccles Lane, a different address, showing the family moved around.
The same family can clearly be seen to have moved around the same streets of Upper and Lower Eccles Lane and different addresses so I wouldn't rule out a move to Eccles Place. It's the same area. It was only a couple of streets away from the place William Wallace Brodie's brother lived with his family and I've just been posting about him elsewhere if we are talking coincidence.

I also found an article that said Alice Carroll had become Alice Mooney, that's at least five different marriages given for Alice in the newspapers! RJ's find of her said to have married a soldier named Smith in 83 fits perfectly, perhaps they lived together before marrying in 87?
I think there was some added detail about Alice's family when Meiklejohn barged his way in to her house when she was supposed to be under police protection. I'll have to read that again.
I'm open to any discussion of the ID if someone can show that it is wrong with primary source material.

There are so many ambiguites that it is a case of no one is going to say you are totally wrong, but in my opinion it falls short of conclusivley saying you are right.

Have you checked to ascertain if the Mcarthys who owned the shop near to Eccles Lane were related to the Millers Court McCarthys? that might be a game changer?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

The second entry shows the occupation as a carman not a cab driver!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes, Trevor, they are 10 years apart! Carman/Cab Driver/Cab Owner seems a perfectly plausible career progression, especially if you came into a little money through your daughter.

It all stacks up. Unless you want to argue that marriage certs, asylum records etc were falsified to muddy the waters.

[MrBarnett]

So we have two different addresses Eccles Place and Eccles Lane two different families with the same name?

Have you read RJ Palmers posts in #34 #44 both seem to conflcit with your posts.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Those two press reports are highly suspect, though. I certainly wouldn’t ignore the clearly documented genealogical story Debs has produced in favour of such press gossip.

Apart from anything else, they contradict each other, claiming 17-year-old Alice had married a cop named Kelly and an informer named Smith.

[Trevor Marriott]

And finally
Alice's 1866 birth cert showing her father as Patrick Carroll, mother Mary White of Eccles Lane a cab driver and also the birth certificate of Alice's brother Thomas, b 1876 and listed on the 1901 census with the family that I posted earlier to show Patrick's occupation was later a cab owner, as Patrick, the father of Alice Carroll on the marriage cert I posted was.

The second entry shows the occupation as a carman not a cab driver!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk