The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[mpriestnall]

Hi Martin,

I would concur that it would be absolutely possible for Kelly to have a kind of hybrid accent if surrounded in London by Welsh relatives.

My evidence for this is purely anecdotal and based on a case study of one (!) but when I started primary school in Yorkshire, my slight Scottish accent was commented on by some of the teachers and other kids.

My mum was Scottish.

As I grew up and my friends exerted more influence, I guess the Yorkshire influences prevailed, but I've recently seen an old video of me messing round with a bunch of friends aged around 17.

I was surprised at how Yorkshire I sounded but you could still hear slight Scottish inflections on certain words.

Now after spending nearly three decades north of the border, and a period in Germany, I have a total mongrel of an accent

English people think I sound quite Scottish, Scottish people think I sound very English.

Some people just can't place it and think I'm Irish / Aussie / Canadian, so yeah, to me it's perfectly feasible that Kelly could have a strange hybrid of an accent that was difficult to identify if her folks were Welsh (or Irish) but she'd spent time in London.

Hi Ms Diddles

Thanks for sharing that. Nice to have a case study supporting my "mixed accent theory"!

Martyn

[mpriestnall]

As I'm the proponent of the Mary Thomas theory which Martyn feels is a waste of time, I can assure you whilst it is pain-staking, I do believe I am making headway and producing good evidence is time-consuming. That's the nature of evidence versus theory. I have a theory and I am building my case with evidence. Perhaps that is something to consider? I think theories are never a waste of time. Proving them should not be deemed as such either.

I think there is mileage in Wickerman's suggestion of identity theft.

I believe the woman known to us as Mary Jane Kelly in Miller's Court who was murdered was Welsh.

At some point between 1881-1888 their paths crossed and elements of the real Kelly's story was intertwined with her own. Why? That I have some ideas why, but that should be established later.

The real Mary Kelly may have actually died before our MJK, giving her the comfort to use the name. Or she was alive post-1888 and did not connect the dots. Or she did but never came forward. Or she was abroad.

Park my Thomas theory for one moment. I am convinced the clue is in the Welsh / Irish link. Why did some believe she was Welsh who spoke fluent Welsh - and some believed she was Irish and not Welsh? This muddled version of her history needs unmuddling.

Was there some kind of missionary who dealt with who he thought was Mary Kelly a few years prior in London who absolutely dismissed the Welsh link? But then we have witnesses saying she spoke fluent Welsh / was from Wales closer to the time of her death?

I wish you all the best with Mary Thomas and I total respect anyone putting the time, effort, money and indeed willing to take the risk into research into any and all case related avenues.

Martyn

[MrBarnett]

How long would it take for a young woman to spend that kind of money or for her relatives to help spend it? 5 Years is a long time in anyones life

Another intersting snippet is with regards to whether or not John McCarthy her landlord at Millers Court was related to the same McCarthy family who owned the shop near to where she lived in Ireland if he was then bingo the quest to identify Mary Kelly is over.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Wasn’t it the case that she didn’t receive the money until she was ‘of age’ - presumably 21? So we’re talking about her becoming financially independent in April, 1887. How can that be squared with her starting life with Joseph Barnett in Spitalfields at around the same time?

[MrBarnett]

Hi Ms Diddles

Thanks for sharing that. Nice to have a case study supporting my "mixed accent theory"!

Martyn

My wife is another example. From an army family, she grew up in Yorkshire, Newcastle, Belfast, London (and Cyprus). Her accent was impossible to pin down when I first knew her. After decades of living in Essex/East London it’s similar to mine now, but she occasionally lapses into a bit of ‘eh up’.

[rjpalmer]

The description of her as the most troublesome of a group of young women congregating in O’Connell Street is at odds with the idea of her being a quiet respectable girl who kept herself to herself for fear retribution from those of Fenian sympathies.

Indeed. It's also somewhat at odds with her supposedly being romantically involved with a police constable in 1883/4. Some reports claim they were even married, which seems doubtful in the extreme. Then we have Honora Carroll, with whom she is confused, who has a brother in the Royal Irish Constabulary. It's all very weird, and I can't get my head around a Crown witness in one of the most important cases of the decade being run-in for using abusive language.

Here's something to add to the mix.




This constable appears to have been PC William Kelly, 203 D, which might add weight to her being known as 'Kelly,' if one wants to take a walk on the wild side. Yet, even here there is confusion, for later reports out of London claim that Carroll's policeman beau was in F-Division.

[erobitha]

Indeed. It's also somewhat at odds with her supposedly being romantically involved with a police constable in 1883/4. Some reports claim they were even married, which seems doubtful in the extreme. Then we have Honora Carroll, with whom she is confused, who has a brother in the Royal Irish Constabulary. It's all very weird, and I can't get my head around a Crown witness in one of the most important cases of the decade being run-in for using abusive language.

Here's something to add to the mix.




This constable appears to have been PC William Kelly, 203 D, which might add weight to her being known as 'Kelly,' if one wants to take a walk on the wild side. Yet, even here there is confusion, for later reports out of London claim that Carroll's policeman beau was in F-Division.

There is an Upper Dorset Street in Dublin RJ. Not sure that helps. I know Broadstone too. Both are on North side of Dublin

[Trevor Marriott]

Wasn’t it the case that she didn’t receive the money until she was ‘of age’ - presumably 21? So we’re talking about her becoming financially independent in April, 1887. How can that be squared with her starting life with Joseph Barnett in Spitalfields at around the same time?

If you have evidence to show that was the case please feel free to post it otherwise we are left to discuss known facts, and not matters of conjecture

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Duplicate post

[MrBarnett]

If you have evidence to show that was the case please feel free to post it otherwise we are left to discuss known facts, and not matters of conjecture

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You know full well that the suggestion came from a contemporary press report.

Where did you obtain this ‘known fact’ from, Trevor?

“Carroll was described as having bright, golden-red, hair and very pretty blue eyes, as did Kelly.”

[rjpalmer]

Wasn’t it the case that she didn’t receive the money until she was ‘of age’ - presumably 21? So we’re talking about her becoming financially independent in April, 1887. How can that be squared with her starting life with Joseph Barnett in Spitalfields at around the same time?

Not to mention that Fanning family has Alice marrying a Frederick James Smith in Dublin, 8 October 1887, and dying in the Richmond Lunatic Asylum (Dublin) eleven years later.

[Trevor Marriott]

You know full well that the suggestion came from a contemporary press report.

Where did you obtain this ‘known fact’ from, Trevor?

“Carroll was described as having bright, golden-red, hair and very pretty blue eyes, as did Kelly.”

I dont know where it came from thats why I was asking, but Alice Carroll was 17 in 1883 and so in 1888 she would have been 22.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Not to mention that Fanning family has Alice marrying a Frederick James Smith in Dublin, 8 October 1887, and dying in the Richmond Lunatic Asylum (Dublin) eleven years later.

Yes, I think it was Debra who provided Fanning with those details. Her suggestion that the Phoenix Park AC married a soldier in late 1887 and ended her life in Richmond Asylum in 1898 works for me.

But this isn’t a topic I’ve spent much time researching. It was your earlier mention of The Coombe and Mountjoy that piqued my interest. They both have family resonance for me and the Coombe, of course, has a connection to Dr Timothy Killeen.

[MrBarnett]

I dont know where it came from thats why I was asking, but Alice Carroll was 17 in 1883 and so in 1888 she would have been 22.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You describe it as ‘unconfirmed information’. I’m just wondering if your source is of a higher calibre than a contemporary Irish press report.

I believe Debra has already pointed out that Alice’s prison record gives her hair colour as ‘brown’.

[rjpalmer]

This account claims Alice Carroll had actually married Smith as early as Nov 1883 and was escorted to Oz. Perhaps they returned to Dublin when the coast was clear and held a ceremony?





This is one of the reasons I have questioned whether the "Alice Carroll" supposedly of No. 13 Eccles Street, arrested and imprisoned in 1886/1887 was really the Phoenix Park informer.

Wouldn't her name have been Alice Smith, and her address likely to have been somewhere else? It could have been her, but there are oddities to all of these news reports

[MrBarnett]

This account claims Alice Carroll had actually married Smith as early as Nov 1883 and was escorted to Oz. Perhaps they returned to Dublin when the coast was clear and held a ceremony?





This is one of the reasons I have questioned whether the "Alice Carroll" supposedly of No. 13 Eccles Street, arrested and imprisoned in 1886/1887 was really the Phoenix Park informer.

Wouldn't her name have been Alice Smith, and her address likely to have been somewhere else? It could have been her, but there are oddities to all of these news reports

There’s also a report where it was suggested she had married a man named Byrne. You may be right about false info being deliberately inserted in the papers.

I looked into the female witness to the 1887 marriage, Josephine Woodfine, on the off chance that we could ID her as a friend/family member of AC’s. But it appears she was the daughter of a sergeant of the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, which was the groom’s regiment.