was Kelly's death premeditated

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

That may well be the origin of the quote I recall second-hand - thanks! However, the piece I recall seemed to be a tad more explicit...so I'll keep looking just in case!

All the best

Dave

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Indeed I believe it is true to say, that McCarthy obtained rents when ever he could.
I would suggest that he would not have tolerated open prostitution by any of the courts residents, especially with his wife and son close by, indeed I understand that most of the residents of Millers court, had at the very least common law marriages.
Why did the landlord tolerate Kelly's arrears?
The word ''compassion'' seems to describe his actions, he and his wife were well aware of the danger on the streets, and would not have evicted a young woman. without a partner.
The morning of the 9th, is full of red herrings,it is believed that at the time Bowyer knocked on Kelly's door, Mrs McCarthy and son were knocking on doors for rent, so why was Bowyer making a visit?
Reports suggest that certain residents, reported to McCarthy that morning that Kelly's blinds were still drawn , and she would not answer the door, so it is conceivable that this was the reason why his manservant was sent to investigate, as room 13 was exempt from collection.
However this was not mentioned by McCarthy in his statement.
I have always believed the youth was McCarthy's son, we should not forget that at the very least the lad was interviewed at Millers court[[according to Dew, not only did the youth arrive at the police station, but he was questioned at the scene].
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

There is a sentence in East End 1888 which might be of note, I can only paraphrase at this point but, in essence ...apparently the neighbourhood did not stir much before noon. The morning, at least from daybreak until noon, was the best time to catch anyone at home.

Especially, one might assume, prostitutes who have been 'toiling' all night?

Regards, Jon S.

[martin wilson]

Major conspiracy?
Let's chuck a few twigs on the fire of the burnt out Royal conspiracy.

Madame Kelly was the founder in 1878 of the infamous Le Chabenaise, sponsored perhaps aptly by the Jockey Club De Paris.

Bertie, Prince of Wales was a frequenter of said establishment.

Marie was a 'code' name for a prostitute who specialised in, or only offered oral sex.

The French Connection, the first two statements can be verified by a quick internet search.
The third statement, infuriatingly, I cannot quote a source because I can't find it again, definitely read it though.

All the best.

[RivkahChaya]

We should not dismiss this as coincidental , as it goes against mathematical odds.

I'm not quite sure where you get your numbers, but we don't, for one thing, know how many other letters were received by people in Whitechapel or Spitalfields a week before Kelly was murdered, that have some content which could be construed as referring to an event nearby? Probably a lot. If we limit it to anonymous, misaddressed, misdelivered, or otherwise mysterious mail, probably significantly fewer, but still, what did the letter say? I had to find it on jtrforums.com. Maybe it's on casebook, but I couldn't find it here.

Here it is (Ipswich Journal, 2 Nov 1888).

Anyway, the content is vague, doesn't refer directly to Mary Kelly, and threatens Norwich women, not someone who lives nearby the return address.

Now, if the letter had said "A week from now, one of my close neighbors gets it," or "Irish women keeping me awake with their night work won't be doing so much longer," that'd be an entirely different thing.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all

I believe that the rents were collected based upon the conditions of the verbal rental agreement for the term of stay. Overnighters paid in advance, clients for the week paid in advance, and renters, which Mary Kelly was, paid weekly, in advance. The rent for Mary would have been due at the end of each week in advance for the upcoming week, however this particular week had a Mayors Day on Friday, Bank Holiday, so the work week technically ended on the Thursday evening, not Friday. Thats why Bowyer was sent Friday morning, not Saturday. Interesting that none of the other Millers Court tenants mention their rent was due Friday morning though.

As to the thread question, I would imagine that since the person had to go to to Marys room in the middle of the night to find her then kill her, it would almost have to be considered a premeditated murder.

Best regards

[RivkahChaya]

As to the thread question, I would imagine that since the person had to go to to Marys room in the middle of the night to find her then kill her, it would almost have to be considered a premeditated murder.

Best regards

All of Jeffrey Dahmer's murders were premeditated, in that her went to bars looking to pick someone up every time he brought a victim home, with the intention of poisoning a drink to render him unconscious, or at least passive, then strangling him. He had the drug ready, the drink ready, the eventual method of body disposal at least ready to an extent.

But he didn't always know who he would end up coming home with, and there were probably night he went out, and ended up not picking up anyone, either because he didn't see anyone he liked, or no one fell for his line (which makes me wonder if there were nights JTR went out with his knife, but wasn't successful in getting a woman to go anywhere with him). So they were all 1st degree murder charges; but it wasn't quite the same crime at someone who plots to kill his older brother, so he can inherit his father's entire estate. Or even someone who stalks a celebrity, and then plots to murder him or her, after being rebuffed.

If by "premeditated," the meaning is "intended to kill specifically Mary Kelly, and no one else," I don't think that's what happened. But if it means "left the house intended to kill someone, and not go home until it was done," then it probably was. I don't think the knife was ever what the cop shows call a "weapon of opportunity."

[lynn cates]

names

Hello Martin.

"Marie was a 'code' name for a prostitute who specialised in, or only offered oral sex."

Indeed? My wife's middle name is Marie. Think you may have some bad information there. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Martin.

"Marie was a 'code' name for a prostitute who specialised in, or only offered oral sex."

Indeed? My wife's middle name is Marie. Think you may have some bad information there. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

My wife's middle name is also Marie,....maybe I should just say nuthin'....

[Simon Wood]

Hi Martin,

You could be onto something,

The middle name of Divine Brown, caught giving actor Hugh Grant a blowjob in a car on Sunset Boulevard, was Marie.

Estella Marie Thompson.

Regards,

Simon

[richardnunweek]

Hello Rivkah.
It is not the content of that letter which is relevant , it is the address, and the day mentioned.
The address was directly opposite Millers court, and the taunting of the Thursday evening being the very night that the killer was on the hunt.
It matters not, even if that letter, was addressed to the Carlisle police, or any police force, it still was headed 14, Dorset street, which was only yards away from Millers court.
Now that is the coincidence.
Regards Richard.

[bolo]

Hi Michael, Richard, all,

As to the thread question, I would imagine that since the person had to go to to Marys room in the middle of the night to find her then kill her, it would almost have to be considered a premeditated murder.

I have similar thoughts on this, it could also explain the comparatively long break between the murders of Eddowes and Kelly.

The lucky escape (at least that's what I think it was) from Mitre Square and increased Police presence in the East End may have led to certain changes in the killer's modus operandi, namely the switch from allowing his victims to lead him to a secluded spot to actively choosing a location and target. Perhaps this is what the killer did for the good part of October.

Regards,

Boris

[c.d.]

My wife's middle name is also Marie,....maybe I should just say nuthin'....

That reminds me of the old joke -- two guys in a bar watching the Green Bay Packers play football. The one guy says "uuh, Green Bay, the only thing to come out of there are football players and prostitutes." The other guy takes offense and says "hey, my wife comes from Green Bay." The first guy says, oh, what position does she play?"

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

To address your point Rivkah, I do believe that the evidence as it is suggests that Marys killer sought her out in her room, which to me indicates that he intended to kill her specifically. Thats why I support the notion this was a premeditated murder. I dont fancy any ideas that he was looking for someone else there.

That differs substantially from the evidence available in the first 2 Ripper murders, which show that the attacks were upon random Unfortunates, subjected to solicitation due to their inability to secure or hold onto their doss on the particular evenings. Thats more how I see your Dahlmer analogy working. The idea was to kill but the target was simply up to the best opportunity at the time.

Cheers Rivkah

[RivkahChaya]

To address your point Rivkah, I do believe that the evidence as it is suggests that Marys killer sought her out in her room, which to me indicates that he intended to kill her specifically. Thats why I support the notion this was a premeditated murder. I dont fancy any ideas that he was looking for someone else there.

Hmmm. Well, then there's a pretty good chance he knew what she looked like, and therefore the idea that he killed someone else, when he was specifically after Mary Kelly is even more questionable.

I still think that even if he was looking for MJK specifically, it might not be for something terribly dramatic, like the son with syphilis story, or the "she's hiding Annie Crook's baby" theory.

I don't think Tess Gerritsen was attempting to put any parts of the real JTR puzzle together when she has her MJK-equivalent character be "the one that got away," but suggesting that he approached MJK with the same come-on that he used with Polly Nichols, and MJK rebuffed him-- maybe she actually insulted him, and said she didn't need 4d that badly, or maybe she just said she was done for the night, whatever, it could have festered over a couple of weeks.

Still, why would he give away his location?

And, FWIW, there have been serial killers who have killed both strangers, and people known to them. Henry Lee Lucas is the only one who comes to mind, and that's even assuming that his only true victims were the girlfriend he killed, whose body he took police to, and the confessions that Ottis Toole corroborated. I'm certain there have been others, though.

Killing both strangers, and people he knew, seems to be another tick in Jimmy Kelly's column, doesn't it? I'm still in the "someone we've never heard of camp," but if I had to pick someone right now, he's at the top of my list.