was Kelly's death premeditated

[Tom_Wescott]

The Rookie Detective:It is odd that Barnett had only recently left her, and then she ends up being butchered in her room.

That is odd, and perhaps significant, but most all the victims' circumstances had recently changed. Nichols had left her lodgings at 18 Thrawl Street and bounced around, landing at 35 Dorset Street, which she was apparently unhappy with. Martha Tabram had recently separated from Henry Turner, Liz Stride only days earlier separated from Michael Kidney, and Frances Coles was booted from the lodging house she'd lived at for years only several weeks before her murder. There is a pattern here, but does the pattern have to do with the killer or with the fact that the denizens of the lodging houses, by a large, did not live stable lives?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Patrick Differ]

Hi RD- I am still unsure of Hutchinson but Abberline could not trip up his story after 3 attempts so it's possible he saw the killer.

What strikes me is that Kelly, like Chapman, Eddowes, and Tabrum were in not just a concentrated kill zone but also in the prime hunting grounds around Flower & Dean Streets. When you look at where these women were killed and where they lived it strikes me that there is also another common denominator and that is the Petticoat Lane Marketplace.

If the killer lived locally then how would you explain the threads the man Hutchinson saw??

There was a thriving Middle Class in Whitechapel. Business owners primarily as Charles Booth identified. Many lived in this area of concentration.

Also the Rag Trade was central to Petticoat Lane and Astrakan was being shipped into the London Docks. The Jewish Tailors were making knock offs of trendy fashion and Astrakan full length coats had become trendy. The Whitechapel middle class could certainly affird the fashion.

How much would the attire cost from Hutchinsons description? Let's call it his Sundays best? Several pounds on the high side. Shabby Genteel with Astrakan, a gold chain, spats...certainly affordable by an even lower Middle Class business owner. All available right there where these women lived and died.

Elizabeth Long may have been a source for Hutchinson in terms of the shabby Genteel description. Although my understanding of that term is that it described someone looking to appear higher in class then they actually were. Likely a standard terminology for the time.

Can you possibly tie this killer to the Whitechapel Marketplace on Middlesex Street and its trades? its all right there.

After Kelly's murder, Hutchinson apparently went with PCs to look for the man. He claims he saw him on Middlesex Street?

Kelly and Chapman have similar connections in this case.

Both were murdered just North of Petticoat Lane
Both eyewitnesses described a man of Jewish appearance
Both described Shabby Genteel attire
Both lived in the hunt zone
Both died in one of two kill zones ( Bucks, Berner the other)
Both were known to Pub hop ( they all did) in this same area

Hutchinson saw a man on Thrawl Street and claims he followed him with Kelly, to Millers Court. He is dressed similarly to the man Elizabeth Long witnesses. Both Shabby Genteel. The distance from Millers Court to 29 Hanbury Street is less than 10 minutes walk.

If Kellys murder was premeditated then it might make sense for the killer to put on his Sunday best. He had the money to impress. He knew where to wait for her to emerge. Thrawl at Commercial Street.

Just some thoughts.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD- not sure what letter is being referred to.

I think Kelly may have been premeditated. Whoever killed her seemed prepared for complete mutilation. There was likely more than one knife. I dont think you try to skin a human with a butcher or sticking knife or clasp knife.

Kelly was over a month behind in rent and she frequented Ten Bells and Britannia so it's possible the killer learned of her predicament. I found it interesting that Inspecter Reid said he thought the killer frequented one Pub and after drinking the man would go after these women.

Since all of these women had a history in and around Dorset, Flower & Dean and Thrawl Street it could be Reid was on to something.

If Hutchinson was to be believed and the killer was the man he saw on Thrawl Street, then it's possible that the Killer learned of all his potential victims from one or both of these Pubs.

Hutchinson made an unusual statement with regard to the parcel his man was holding. He referred to it as American Cloth with straps. I'm not certain but believe American Cloth was canvass. Several professions used this cloth to wrap instruments or knives in and you can find them online.


The man said something to Kelly that made them both burst in to laughter as she replied - allright.
if this man then said- you will be allright for what I have told you...what could be said to get that kind of response?

Did the killer offer to.pay her rent for some sexual offer in her room?? Money talks?

Just initial thoughts but I could see premedition in her case.

A good post.


I personally think that Hutchinson was not a credible witness and that Astrakan man was an invention.

That may or may not then mean that the killer was Hutchinson; or the man who came forward with a fake name as Hutchinson.

His timing is telling; he only came forward after the inquest concluded after just a few hours.

Nobody was expecting the coroner to close the inquest on the same day it had started, not even the killer.


How would the killer feel about his swansong killing being wattled down into just a few hours of discussion that culminated in the coroner closing the inquest with no adjournment.



I also don't believe that Kelly was necessarily soliciting the entire time.

Admittedly she was seen taking Blotchy face back to her room, but it appears she spent more time singing to him than anything else.



I think the killer may have even lived in Miller's Court, or at least had at some point in the past, and so was familiar with the court, and possibly Kelly's movements on the few days leading up to the murder.


It is odd that Barnett had only recently left her, and then she ends up being butchered in her room.


That's not to say that Barnett had anything to do with the murder, but rather that the killer was aware that her circumstances had recently changed, and on that basis he targeted her.

He may have done the same thing with Stride, in that he may have become aware of her recent split, and sought to take advantage of her having become single.



It's a tricky one to decipher, but I lean more to the idea that Kelly's murder was planned to some extent.


He watched her and then picked his moment.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi RD- not sure what letter is being referred to.

I think Kelly may have been premeditated. Whoever killed her seemed prepared for complete mutilation. There was likely more than one knife. I dont think you try to skin a human with a butcher or sticking knife or clasp knife.

Kelly was over a month behind in rent and she frequented Ten Bells and Britannia so it's possible the killer learned of her predicament. I found it interesting that Inspecter Reid said he thought the killer frequented one Pub and after drinking the man would go after these women.

Since all of these women had a history in and around Dorset, Flower & Dean and Thrawl Street it could be Reid was on to something.

If Hutchinson was to be believed and the killer was the man he saw on Thrawl Street, then it's possible that the Killer learned of all his potential victims from one or both of these Pubs.

Hutchinson made an unusual statement with regard to the parcel his man was holding. He referred to it as American Cloth with straps. I'm not certain but believe American Cloth was canvass. Several professions used this cloth to wrap instruments or knives in and you can find them online.


The man said something to Kelly that made them both burst in to laughter as she replied - allright.
if this man then said- you will be allright for what I have told you...what could be said to get that kind of response?

Did the killer offer to.pay her rent for some sexual offer in her room?? Money talks?

Just initial thoughts but I could see premedition in her case.

[The Rookie Detective]

Time for a bump up methinks.

Interesting thread

[RivkahChaya]

To address your point Rivkah, I do believe that the evidence as it is suggests that Marys killer sought her out in her room, which to me indicates that he intended to kill her specifically. Thats why I support the notion this was a premeditated murder. I dont fancy any ideas that he was looking for someone else there.

Hmmm. Well, then there's a pretty good chance he knew what she looked like, and therefore the idea that he killed someone else, when he was specifically after Mary Kelly is even more questionable.

I still think that even if he was looking for MJK specifically, it might not be for something terribly dramatic, like the son with syphilis story, or the "she's hiding Annie Crook's baby" theory.

I don't think Tess Gerritsen was attempting to put any parts of the real JTR puzzle together when she has her MJK-equivalent character be "the one that got away," but suggesting that he approached MJK with the same come-on that he used with Polly Nichols, and MJK rebuffed him-- maybe she actually insulted him, and said she didn't need 4d that badly, or maybe she just said she was done for the night, whatever, it could have festered over a couple of weeks.

Still, why would he give away his location?

And, FWIW, there have been serial killers who have killed both strangers, and people known to them. Henry Lee Lucas is the only one who comes to mind, and that's even assuming that his only true victims were the girlfriend he killed, whose body he took police to, and the confessions that Ottis Toole corroborated. I'm certain there have been others, though.

Killing both strangers, and people he knew, seems to be another tick in Jimmy Kelly's column, doesn't it? I'm still in the "someone we've never heard of camp," but if I had to pick someone right now, he's at the top of my list.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

To address your point Rivkah, I do believe that the evidence as it is suggests that Marys killer sought her out in her room, which to me indicates that he intended to kill her specifically. Thats why I support the notion this was a premeditated murder. I dont fancy any ideas that he was looking for someone else there.

That differs substantially from the evidence available in the first 2 Ripper murders, which show that the attacks were upon random Unfortunates, subjected to solicitation due to their inability to secure or hold onto their doss on the particular evenings. Thats more how I see your Dahlmer analogy working. The idea was to kill but the target was simply up to the best opportunity at the time.

Cheers Rivkah

[c.d.]

My wife's middle name is also Marie,....maybe I should just say nuthin'....

That reminds me of the old joke -- two guys in a bar watching the Green Bay Packers play football. The one guy says "uuh, Green Bay, the only thing to come out of there are football players and prostitutes." The other guy takes offense and says "hey, my wife comes from Green Bay." The first guy says, oh, what position does she play?"

c.d.

[bolo]

Hi Michael, Richard, all,

As to the thread question, I would imagine that since the person had to go to to Marys room in the middle of the night to find her then kill her, it would almost have to be considered a premeditated murder.

I have similar thoughts on this, it could also explain the comparatively long break between the murders of Eddowes and Kelly.

The lucky escape (at least that's what I think it was) from Mitre Square and increased Police presence in the East End may have led to certain changes in the killer's modus operandi, namely the switch from allowing his victims to lead him to a secluded spot to actively choosing a location and target. Perhaps this is what the killer did for the good part of October.

Regards,

Boris

[richardnunweek]

Hello Rivkah.
It is not the content of that letter which is relevant , it is the address, and the day mentioned.
The address was directly opposite Millers court, and the taunting of the Thursday evening being the very night that the killer was on the hunt.
It matters not, even if that letter, was addressed to the Carlisle police, or any police force, it still was headed 14, Dorset street, which was only yards away from Millers court.
Now that is the coincidence.
Regards Richard.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Martin,

You could be onto something,

The middle name of Divine Brown, caught giving actor Hugh Grant a blowjob in a car on Sunset Boulevard, was Marie.

Estella Marie Thompson.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Hello Martin.

"Marie was a 'code' name for a prostitute who specialised in, or only offered oral sex."

Indeed? My wife's middle name is Marie. Think you may have some bad information there. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

My wife's middle name is also Marie,....maybe I should just say nuthin'....

[lynn cates]

names

Hello Martin.

"Marie was a 'code' name for a prostitute who specialised in, or only offered oral sex."

Indeed? My wife's middle name is Marie. Think you may have some bad information there. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

As to the thread question, I would imagine that since the person had to go to to Marys room in the middle of the night to find her then kill her, it would almost have to be considered a premeditated murder.

Best regards

All of Jeffrey Dahmer's murders were premeditated, in that her went to bars looking to pick someone up every time he brought a victim home, with the intention of poisoning a drink to render him unconscious, or at least passive, then strangling him. He had the drug ready, the drink ready, the eventual method of body disposal at least ready to an extent.

But he didn't always know who he would end up coming home with, and there were probably night he went out, and ended up not picking up anyone, either because he didn't see anyone he liked, or no one fell for his line (which makes me wonder if there were nights JTR went out with his knife, but wasn't successful in getting a woman to go anywhere with him). So they were all 1st degree murder charges; but it wasn't quite the same crime at someone who plots to kill his older brother, so he can inherit his father's entire estate. Or even someone who stalks a celebrity, and then plots to murder him or her, after being rebuffed.

If by "premeditated," the meaning is "intended to kill specifically Mary Kelly, and no one else," I don't think that's what happened. But if it means "left the house intended to kill someone, and not go home until it was done," then it probably was. I don't think the knife was ever what the cop shows call a "weapon of opportunity."

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all

I believe that the rents were collected based upon the conditions of the verbal rental agreement for the term of stay. Overnighters paid in advance, clients for the week paid in advance, and renters, which Mary Kelly was, paid weekly, in advance. The rent for Mary would have been due at the end of each week in advance for the upcoming week, however this particular week had a Mayors Day on Friday, Bank Holiday, so the work week technically ended on the Thursday evening, not Friday. Thats why Bowyer was sent Friday morning, not Saturday. Interesting that none of the other Millers Court tenants mention their rent was due Friday morning though.

As to the thread question, I would imagine that since the person had to go to to Marys room in the middle of the night to find her then kill her, it would almost have to be considered a premeditated murder.

Best regards