was Kelly's death premeditated

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
We have had many threads over the years, suggesting the Mary Kelly may have not been the victim in room 13, and it all was a major conspiracy to escape from a fate, but lets look at the possibility that the killer was intending to kill Mary for some period of time...
The letter dated second November 88, was addressed 14, Dorset street, an address which was directly opposite Millers court, it was sent exactly one week prior to the murder, and maybe coincidently ? was the address of a certain Mrs Maxwell who was a major witness at the inquest.
Many coincidences rear up on Casebook, but surely anyone who can predict a Ripper murder , and send a correspondence to the police[ albeit out of area] stating an address just yards away from the forthcoming bloodbath, has to have
major psychic abilities or indeed the killer himself[ or accomplice ].
We should not dismiss this as coincidental , as it goes against mathematical odds.
Was Kelly being stalked as the next victim, from someone either having knowledge of the location of 14, Dorset street, or from a resident.
If the latter ..it would be a perfect spot to watch the planned victims habits , and the surroundings , he /she would also know her living in arrangements .
We should ask the question, why kill Kelly in room 13, why not in some secluded spot in the area.?
The answer may lie with Kelly herself , who having a room , and probably more dignity then the others, would never entice a man to some infested alleyway , therefore the killer had to alter his MO.
With regard to Mrs Maxwell , I feel sure, that her and her husband, should be treated with some suspicion, and one must ask the obvious.
Was her statement a ploy to give an alibi to someone?
Why send a letter to the Norfolk police, it had to be someone who had a knowledge of Yarmouth, for as Chris Scott pointed out, the mention of two piers shows that., we know that a Miss Smith, born in Yarmouth, was a resident of number 14 in 1891, was she in 1888?, and who would have possible knowledge of that, apart from her, we could suggest the Deputy of the residence , Mrs M's Husband, or even her..
It all boils down to was that letter simply a '' major'' coincidence , or something very relevant, I go for the latter.
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Richard

Hi,
The answer may lie with Kelly herself , who having a room , and probably more dignity then the others, would never entice a man to some infested alleyway , therefore the killer had to alter his MO.

I`ve always considered Kelly as the most hopeless of the lot. I doubt she had much dignity, Richard.

At 26 years old (Kelly`s age) Annie Chapman and Polly Nichols both had a working husband and kids and had not yet fallen into the East End. Eddowes, despite been a wild one still managed to bring up some children somewhere along the line. Kelly was on the slide a good ten or fifteen years ahead of them.

Didn`t Kelly work the Leman St area?
I doubt she walked her companion all the way back to Dorset St, where Barnett lived, so, probably did use infested alleyways.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
We have no evidence that Mary ever used alleyways, we have her ex landlady telling a tale of Kelly bringing a man to her house to spend the night,
We also have the oral history from Cox's niece, of her bringing sailors back to room 13.
We can of course speculate that the Leman street haunt was evidence of her prostitution outside the safety of her room, but we can't be sure of a secluded outside location, neither can we be sure of the Black Mary image sometimes portrayed, swaying her hips outside the Ten bells, with a fist ready to floor anyone in her spot.
But all of the above, is not the topic my thread was referring to.
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

You`re correct, Richard, 99% of what we know about Kelly is titttle tattle.

Not the topic of your thread? I quoted you from your post.

Anyway, there is nothing to indicate Kelly`s death was a premeditated, other than her killer took a knife out with him that morning.

[Nemo]

Hi Richard

It should be noted that by this date Annie Chapman had been reported in the press as living in Dorset St and also Eddowes sleeping in the shed at Dorset St

[richardnunweek]

Hello Nemo,
Absolutely correct.
Which would give even more credence to the killer being familiar with that street, what I am suggesting is that if the killer possibly resided at number 14, it would have been directly opposite the shed, and Millers court, and only a few doors away from Crossingham's where Annie stayed.
We could suggest that the letter simply was a hoax , and the writer simply made up an address from that street, or knew that number 14, was opposite in location, to the shed.
But what a good guess that the next murder was also opposite the address penned?
Regards Richard.

[Nemo]

Quite possible Richard

To me, the letter itself threatening murders in Yarmouth marks it out as a hoax

I think it likely that Dorset St being mentioned in connection with other victims gave someone the idea to pen such a letter, and there is a good possibility the writer lived in Dorset St or was familiar with it

Chris Scott and Debra Arif did a good job at JtR forums in tracing the people who lived at number 14

Chris described the residents as mostly Jewish

This in a street where I have seen reference to Jews not venturing for fear of attack

That might be why an attempt to draw attention to No.14 was made

[Phil H]

Letters were probably sent about every day, so some must appear relevent but are simply coincidences.

IMHO the ripper was not a letter writer.

as to premeditation - I can swing two ways:

a) if it was a crime of passion then I think Barnett, Fleming or whomever called and killed her in a fit od rage (no premeditation); but

b) if Barnett killed her because he was jealous, or resented her letting other women use the troom, then some premeditation, maybe just a few hours, is (in my judgement) possible.

Phil H

[Sally]

I don't think its impossible that it was premeditated - because I entertain the idea that the killer 'knew' his victims in the sense that he may have had some familiarity with them: perhaps he had used their services before, perhaps he knew of them/knew them by sight.

It would certainly have made it easier for him if his victims had known him to some extent because they would have felt safer in his company.

In Kelly's case, it seems at least possible that she was targetted. I don't think it need be a spurned lover to work - although, who knows?

[Robert]

What kind of bloke plans a murder, but doesn't bring a light?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
He would not need one if Maxwell was right, and the police who at least initially believed the murder took place in daylight.
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Richard

That's a big "if." But allowing for the sake of argument that Maxwell was right, why would Jack plan to kill Kelly on rent day? Would he want McCarthy, or Mrs McCarthy, or Bowyer peering through the window while he was engaged on his gruesome business?

[Barnaby]

Many coincidences rear up on Casebook, but surely anyone who can predict a Ripper murder , and send a correspondence to the police[ albeit out of area] stating an address just yards away from the forthcoming bloodbath, has to have
major psychic abilities or indeed the killer himself[ or accomplice ].
We should not dismiss this as coincidental , as it goes against mathematical odds.

Highly improbable things happen all the time; that's the nature of probability. There is life on Earth, there are daily lottery winners, hell we might even figure out who was JTR one of these days.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Richard

That's a big "if." But allowing for the sake of argument that Maxwell was right, why would Jack plan to kill Kelly on rent day?

I'm far from convinced by Maxwell's story, but didn't I read somewhere an account of "rents" in some cases being collected daily? (Not being of a Swansonesque nature I recall marking the page of the book in question with a "post-it" which appears to have become detatched - Curses!)...which might back up the oft-expressed idea that McCarthy took commission from the working girls...and which just might explain the 29/- arrears and his tolerance of same....

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Dave.

Is this what you were looking for?

" For these rooms rents are supposed to be paid daily, but of course they will sometimes get a good deal in arrear."
Daily News, 10 Nov. 1888.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881110.html

Kelly may have had special considerations, or, maybe Bowyer knocked on her door every morning?

Regards, Jon S.