Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Michael W Richards]

Im not sure what establishing a mid morning murder time for Mary Jane does for the investigation in general terms. We only know of 2 men claimed to be seen in her company the previous night, Blotchy and Astrakan. Astrakan Man being real presumes that Mary has left the room unseen to go back out again, which then means Blotchy has left too. So A. Man is THE Man of Interest. But we have reason to believe Astrakan Man may be fictional, or at least borrowed, by a man who gives his story 4 days later, and after the Inquest. So,...Blotchy again. Why would he wait until 9 or 10 am to kill her? He enters the room with her just before midnight...does he get some action, have a snooze then wake up casually at around 9 and do that? How long do you think that took....and what time was daylight?

[Curious Cat]

You might recall for the poor of the East End it was the custom for people to remain fully dressed when retiring to bed.
The only reason Kelly would go to bed in only her night gown was for entertaining a client.

The proposal here is that Mary Kelly was murdered between 9am and 10:30am. If that was the case then the idea of her not sleeping at all - client or not - is what I was pointing towards. Basically, why wake up, get dressed, go out, come back, undress again, get back in bed. If, as you say, it was common to sleep while fully dressed then Mary would just stay dressed on her return and sleep on top of her bed if still tired. Just in time for her killer to enter her room in daylight and leave again without being seen or heard while also having the time to perform all the mutilations in between.

As I say, that doesn't instinctively fit.

[Abby Normal]

The proposal here is that Mary Kelly was murdered between 9am and 10:30am. If that was the case then the idea of her not sleeping at all - client or not - is what I was pointing towards. Basically, why wake up, get dressed, go out, come back, undress again, get back in bed. If, as you say, it was common to sleep while fully dressed then Mary would just stay dressed on her return and sleep on top of her bed if still tired. Just in time for her killer to enter her room in daylight and leave again without being seen or heard while also having the time to perform all the mutilations in between.

As I say, that doesn't instinctively fit.

hi cat
yup. agree
what dosnt fit is the enirety of maxwells statement and mary being murdered in the daylight morning in between 9-10:30.

1.are we to beleive that after being ill from drinking and going to the pub for a bit of the hair of the dog which results in her vomiting shes going to be in any condition to go back to a pub and solicite? i dont think so.

2. the times are too tight. pick up a man at the pub, walk back to her place, stoke a big fire, get murdered and extensively mutilated and her killer to escape without anyone seeing him in a bustling mid morning before bowyer discovers her at 10:45? hard to beleive that could all happen in that short a time frame.

3. she was looking forward to going to the lord mayers show, probably had money in her pocket from blotchy (if he wasnt her killer of course). whats she doing then screwing around with another client in the mid morning? she would have been getting ready to go or already left.

4. a mid morning daylight kill would have been out of sorts with the rippers usual MO.

5. both doctors thought she died in the early morning night time hours.

6. two women heard screams of murder from a women coming from the general area of her room in the middle of the night which corroberates the drs tod.

7. maxwell, who didnt know "mary" very well, was cautioned by the coroner on her story. maxwell probably had the wrong woman.

8. the last credible sighting of mary with a suspect was the night before, where shes seen entering her abode with blotchy before shes discovered dead the next morning.

of course its possible maxwell was correct and mary was killed in between 9-10:30 am, but with all things considered i find it highly unlikely.

[Curious Cat]

hi cat
yup. agree
what dosnt fit is the enirety of maxwells statement and mary being murdered in the daylight morning in between 9-10:30.

1.are we to beleive that after being ill from drinking and going to the pub for a bit of the hair of the dog which results in her vomiting shes going to be in any condition to go back to a pub and solicite? i dont think so.

2. the times are too tight. pick up a man at the pub, walk back to her place, stoke a big fire, get murdered and extensively mutilated and her killer to escape without anyone seeing him in a bustling mid morning before bowyer discovers her at 10:45? hard to beleive that could all happen in that short a time frame.

3. she was looking forward to going to the lord mayers show, probably had money in her pocket from blotchy (if he wasnt her killer of course). whats she doing then screwing around with another client in the mid morning? she would have been getting ready to go or already left.

4. a mid morning daylight kill would have been out of sorts with the rippers usual MO.

5. both doctors thought she died in the early morning night time hours.

6. two women heard screams of murder from a women coming from the general area of her room in the middle of the night which corroberates the drs tod.

7. maxwell, who didnt know "mary" very well, was cautioned by the coroner on her story. maxwell probably had the wrong woman.

8. the last credible sighting of mary with a suspect was the night before, where shes seen entering her abode with blotchy before shes discovered dead the next morning.

of course its possible maxwell was correct and mary was killed in between 9-10:30 am, but with all things considered i find it highly unlikely.

If Mrs Maxwell was mistaken then avenue closed.

If Mrs Maxwell did see Mary Kelly then the only question to answer is if the woman in Mary Kelly's room was Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly occasionally had other women stay in her room. It was cited as a reason she and Barnett had previously had an argument.

Was there a plan to get out of the rent arrears that went too far?

Is it the real reason she was seen throwing up?

But again, if Maxwell's mistaken, this is an academic line of thought.

[Abby Normal]

If Mrs Maxwell was mistaken then avenue closed.

If Mrs Maxwell did see Mary Kelly then the only question to answer is if the woman in Mary Kelly's room was Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly occasionally had other women stay in her room. It was cited as a reason she and Barnett had previously had an argument.

Was there a plan to get out of the rent arrears that went too far?

Is it the real reason she was seen throwing up?

But again, if Maxwell's mistaken, this is an academic line of thought.

if maxwell did see mary the only question is who was the man she saw her talking with at the pub.
it was kelly murdered. it was her room, she was ided. she was buried.
not sure where your going with the other questions.

[Curious Cat]

if maxwell did see mary the only question is who was the man she saw her talking with at the pub.
it was kelly murdered. it was her room, she was ided. she was buried.
not sure where your going with the other questions.

A line of thought I had about her taking a particularly elaborate route out of her rent arrears.

But that's only a thought in line with Mrs Maxwell seeing Mary Kelly. We agree that we can rule out Mary Kelly being murdered between 9am and 10:30am on the basis of its improbability. So if she did see Mary Kelly then that pulls into question the identity of the woman found in Mary Kelly's room. And if it's not Mary Kelly what would be the circumstances of it being someone else. If Mrs Maxwell didn't see her, then that skewers any idea in that direction anyway.

As for the man, it's purely dependent on whether Mrs Maxwell was mistaken or not. Mistaken...the man's identity is neither here nor there. Not mistaken...he very much becomes a person of interest.

[Michael W Richards]

There is no evidence at all that Mrs Maxwell actually knew Mary Jane Kelly.

[spyglass]

If Mrs Maxwell was mistaken then avenue closed.

If Mrs Maxwell did see Mary Kelly then the only question to answer is if the woman in Mary Kelly's room was Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly occasionally had other women stay in her room. It was cited as a reason she and Barnett had previously had an argument.

Was there a plan to get out of the rent arrears that went too far?

Is it the real reason she was seen throwing up?

But again, if Maxwell's mistaken, this is an academic line of thought.

I've always felt deep down that Maxwell wasnt mistaken.
For one thing, her memory was to close to the actual event.
Secondly, she remained adamant about it even when at the enquiry, they tried to change her mind.

Regards.

[c.d.]

Secondly, she remained adamant about it even when at the enquiry, they tried to change her mind.

Hello Spyglass,

But that only tells us about the strength of her belief. It doesn't tell us anything about the truth of her story. There are people who are adamant that they have seen ghosts, aliens, Bigfoot etc.

c.d.

[spyglass]

Secondly, she remained adamant about it even when at the enquiry, they tried to change her mind.

Hello Spyglass,

But that only tells us about the strength of her belief. It doesn't tell us anything about the truth of her story. There are people who are adamant that they have seen ghosts, aliens, Bigfoot etc.

c.d.

Hi CD

To be fair, I would say this is slightly different.
What swings it for me is the fact they she came forward to give a statement only a few hours after the event.
Some people argue that she could have got her days wrong....I think that very unlikely.
and the fact that she spoke to her and not just sighted her gives even more credence.

Regards

[miakaal4]

Okay. So now we have "Maxwell didn't know MJK very well" to " she never knew her at all". Sounds like the grapes saga, if it don't fit, its wrong. She could have had her own fire burning. She owed rent, feeling a bit monkey wouldn't stop her taking on a punter. 10-15 mins and its all done. JtR took 15 mins with Chapman, (Dr Phillips) 4-8 minutes with Eddowes, so 90 minutes with MJK is more than enough. Maxwell said she knew MJK 3 to 4 months. 6 at inquest. She stuck to her guns. Against her are 2 Doctor estimations that differ. Why is she so wrong and they so right? Stride killed 01.00. Chapman 05.30? So the time factor is irrelevant. But the risk was extreme. JtR was one lucky bloke. Or we are missing something.

[c.d.]

Hi CD

To be fair, I would say this is slightly different.
What swings it for me is the fact they she came forward to give a statement only a few hours after the event.
Some people argue that she could have got her days wrong....I think that very unlikely.
and the fact that she spoke to her and not just sighted her gives even more credence.

Regards

Hello Spyglass,

I don't see any way to reconcile her testimony with the TOD established by the doctors. That would lead us to believe that one of the parties got it wrong. But which one?
It basically comes down to what is more likely. That trained medical doctors were incorrect in their estimate of time of death and that the killer (if it was, in fact, Jack) drastically changed his M.O. regarding the time when he killed or that Mrs. Maxwell simply got confused and misidentified Mary and/or mixed up her dates. Could the doctors be wrong? Yes. Could Mrs. Maxwell have been mistaken? Yes. But if I go with what I think more likely I have to go with the doctors.

Pays your money and takes your chances.

c.d.

[miakaal4]

Well to be honest I think the docs are dodgy. My review of the rigour mortis shows a discrepancy and I still believe Phillips lied at Strides inquest re the grapes. So happily i disagree. Great this aint it?

[spyglass]

Hello Spyglass,

I don't see any way to reconcile her testimony with the TOD established by the doctors. That would lead us to believe that one of the parties got it wrong. But which one?
It basically comes down to what is more likely. That trained medical doctors were incorrect in their estimate of time of death and that the killer (if it was, in fact, Jack) drastically changed his M.O. regarding the time when he killed or that Mrs. Maxwell simply got confused and misidentified Mary and/or mixed up her dates. Could the doctors be wrong? Yes. Could Mrs. Maxwell have been mistaken? Yes. But if I go with what I think more likely I have to go with the doctors.

Pays your money and takes your chances.

c.d.

Or....the Body wasnt MJK.

One thing that has always stuck with me, and is often neglected by many is the fact that, as I remember a Times journalist was allowed to look around the room.
He described in detail the clothes left on the chair, almost exactly to what Maxwell described Kelly as wearing...especially the velvet bodice.
Ofcourse this could be the garb of most women back then....but still.
Although I'm relying on memory here as I have no references or books to hand.


Regards

[Damaso Marte]

To me the most improbable thing about the "MJK was not the woman killed in the room" idea is that it requires explaining what happened to MJK afterwards. She just decided to disappear and none of her relatives or the police ever saw her again?