Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[miakaal4]

Well I'm not surprised that some of the people who disagree with my idea have no other response than facetious innuendo, but for those who gave a serious opinion, I must ask you to consider what was after all an objective statement, from Maxwell, against a subjective estimation by a doctor who did not perform the autopsy. I believe that the grapes were in Strides hand when she was found, and if that was the case, Phillips lied at an inquest, under oath.

From Five Points of Fellowship.
Initiation; Master Mason Ritual.

You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons, and
should you be summoned as a witness against a Brother Mason
be always sure to shield him, it may be perjury to do this, it is true,
but you are keeping with your obligation.
Royone Handbook of Masonry. (p. 183)
To go against this was death. Okay I don't think if one Mason grassed on another he would be killed, but he would be dead to the Masons. Shunned and snubbed by society, basically ruined.
I have read many books on this subject, the A-Z, the Diary, lots. And yes I have read Bruce Robinson. I don't believe all I read, but I do take note of clear evidence of lack of it. In the case of MJK, her body was dissected. Next to a hot fire. I don't think any of the Vics put up a struggle because the first thing a woman does if she gets a chance is scream.
Something else is bothering me, but it's about Stride, and I'd love a serious opinion or two.
If Stride was in fact holding a bunch of grapes in one hand and a pack of sweets in the other, how was she going to service her client, JtR? I don't believe it would be a face to face event, considering the wet ground and even standing, would be difficult. So she would be bending forwards wouldn't she? And to do that, she would need to lean on something. Sorry if this is crude, but you see the problem? Was it possible he wasn't even a client? Just sneaked up after the grapes buyer had finished? She picks up her stuff and is attacked? Thoughts?

[Wickerman]

If Stride was in fact holding a bunch of grapes in one hand and a pack of sweets in the other, how was she going to service her client, JtR? I don't believe it would be a face to face event, considering the wet ground and even standing, would be difficult. So she would be bending forwards wouldn't she? And to do that, she would need to lean on something. Sorry if this is crude, but you see the problem? Was it possible he wasn't even a client? Just sneaked up after the grapes buyer had finished? She picks up her stuff and is attacked? Thoughts?

The custom was for the woman to face the wall, anal intercourse was common, in fact the norm, according to some sources.
I posted one newspaper account that told the story of a woman who had spent her life 'on the game'. Starting out on the streets as they all do, and eventually running her own brothel.
She died a virgin.
Obviously, I'm not suggesting this was the case for every woman, but it shows just how successful a woman can be without committing herself to conventional intercourse.

Most posters don't believe Stride held any grapes, some even suggested those witnesses who saw the grapes in her hand actually must have seen blood clots and mistook them for grapes.
Others believe Phillips that if he didn't see any skins or pips in her stomach then there were no grapes, personally I take that as too simple. Not everyone eats the skin, and many spit out the pips anyway. So to me his observation is not conclusive.
Stomach acid would have dissolved any grape 'flesh' in her stomach before the autopsy was conducted, some 30+ hours after the murder.

The presence of grapes has no consequence in this murder that I can see, it's more of a side-line issue.

[miakaal4]

The presence of grapes would mean she could have got them from Packer, (as he claimed) who would then be able to give a good description of the killer, or at least of the man with Stride at 00.30 Packer saw them for the last time in the street opposite Dutfields yard at around 00.30-00.35. This is corroborated by Constable William Smith who said he saw Stride with a well dress man of about 28yrs at 00.35 while walking his beat, in the same spot Packer saw them. If you were a cop and knew that would you not go for it? Both Packer and Smith are saying, the man looked and sounded like a "proper gent".

[Michael W Richards]

The custom was for the woman to face the wall, anal intercourse was common, in fact the norm, according to some sources.
I posted one newspaper account that told the story of a woman who had spent her life 'on the game'. Starting out on the streets as they all do, and eventually running her own brothel.
She died a virgin.
Obviously, I'm not suggesting this was the case for every woman, but it shows just how successful a woman can be without committing herself to conventional intercourse.

Most posters don't believe Stride held any grapes, some even suggested those witnesses who saw the grapes in her hand actually must have seen blood clots and mistook them for grapes.
Others believe Phillips that if he didn't see any skins or pips in her stomach then there were no grapes, personally I take that as too simple. Not everyone eats the skin, and many spit out the pips anyway. So to me his observation is not conclusive.
Stomach acid would have dissolved any grape 'flesh' in her stomach before the autopsy was conducted, some 30+ hours after the murder.

The presence of grapes has no consequence in this murder that I can see, it's more of a side-line issue.

And most if not all of the people who have studied the cases for decades dont believe she was soliciting Jon. Thought It might have been good to mention that...there is nothing at all in this story that suggests Liz Stride was there for anything but personal reasons.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Surely we can at least suggest an instinct for self-preservation in the ripper; he remained undiscovered of course. Therefore isn’t it unlikely that he’d have allowed himself to have been seen in the company of the victim and at close range and for a few seconds just before he went on to kill her?

[Curious Cat]

My own observation of the familiar photo of Mary Kelly's body in situ - as first noted here: https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...342#post738342 - is that she did at some point actually go to bed. As in actually was in bed rather than just laying on top.

It seems unlikely that she will have undressed for bed, slept, got up and dressed, went out, came back soon after, undressed again and went back to bed just in time to be killed and no-one see anyone else leaving her room or Miller's Court around that time. Not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't instinctively fit.

[Joshua Rogan]

Both Packer and Smith are saying, the man looked and sounded like a "proper gent".

Hardly. Smith said only that the man was "respectably dressed".
Packer said that "He looked to me like a clerk or something of that sort" and that he spoke with a Yankee twang. Which hardly describes a pillar of the English establishment.

[Herlock Sholmes]

With the extreme poverty levels at the time some locals idea of what constituted: a gent or posh or well-to-do might have amounted to little more than a clean, half-decent suit.

[Wickerman]

The presence of grapes would mean she could have got them from Packer, (as he claimed) who would then be able to give a good description of the killer, or at least of the man with Stride at 00.30 Packer saw them for the last time in the street opposite Dutfields yard at around 00.30-00.35. This is corroborated by Constable William Smith who said he saw Stride with a well dress man of about 28yrs at 00.35 while walking his beat, in the same spot Packer saw them. If you were a cop and knew that would you not go for it? Both Packer and Smith are saying, the man looked and sounded like a "proper gent".

Yes, those are details I have raised myself, yet the issue of the grapes seems to center around whether they were in her right hand as she lay dead in the yard. This is a point of contention, but this is what I meant by "of no consequence".
Packer & Smith confirm each other, this man was most likely her killer in my view.

[Wickerman]

And most if not all of the people who have studied the cases for decades dont believe she was soliciting Jon. Thought It might have been good to mention that...there is nothing at all in this story that suggests Liz Stride was there for anything but personal reasons.

I don't 'know' what most people think, I don't feel the opinions of others matter all that much. None of us actually 'know' what she was doing, some witnesses appear to describe her being with different men in her last hour, that sounds like soliciting to me.

It is also possible those witnesses saw a different couple, it wasn't Stride, but then we are left with the question - how long had she been with her last companion who bought the grapes that night?
Does anybody know? - of course not.
So, on what basis are we to believe Stride was not soliciting, when she was a known prostitute?

Are you sure that you are not trying to paint Stride as 'only dating' that night out of preference for your theory?

[Wickerman]

Surely we can at least suggest an instinct for self-preservation in the ripper; he remained undiscovered of course. Therefore isn’t it unlikely that he’d have allowed himself to have been seen in the company of the victim and at close range and for a few seconds just before he went on to kill her?

Sober thinking.

[Wickerman]

My own observation of the familiar photo of Mary Kelly's body in situ - as first noted here: https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...342#post738342 - is that she did at some point actually go to bed. As in actually was in bed rather than just laying on top.

It seems unlikely that she will have undressed for bed, slept, got up and dressed, went out, came back soon after, undressed again and went back to bed just in time to be killed and no-one see anyone else leaving her room or Miller's Court around that time. Not saying it's impossible, but it doesn't instinctively fit.

You might recall for the poor of the East End it was the custom for people to remain fully dressed when retiring to bed.
The only reason Kelly would go to bed in only her night gown was for entertaining a client.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sober thinking.

Hello Wick, I hope you’re well?

[c.d.]

Whether Stride was actively soliciting that night is a moot point. The real point is what would her reaction have been if she had been approached and offered extra cash for her services and that we simply don't know.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Sober thinking.

Well there's your problem right there.

c.d.