Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Aethelwulf]

What I read was the Scottish police called Scotland Yard and requested they come and look at some evidence, was it some of his writing?
I could be misremembering, but if this is correct, Scotland Yard were only responding to a request, they had no opinion one way or the other.
It was only after the interview they let it be known Bury is not a suspect.

Seems I'm still live so i'll just post this but confirms you talk **** John and this place is a waste of time. Journalist Norman Hastings interviewed police that worked on the Bury case. I beleive his notes have been reproduced in ripper notes 2005 (Hastings, Norman. “When the People Were in Terror.” Ed. by Nicholas Connell. Ripper Notes 21 (2005): 67). Hastings thought the ripper was not bury someone that came and went by boat.

So you say the police weren't interested: they had no opinion one way or the other. It was only after the interview they let it be known Bury is not a suspect

vrs his findings (these reproduced on steve Earp's website)

Hastings stated “A dozen experienced men were sent” by Scotland Yard “to make the necessary inquiries”

Scotland Yard detectives who investigated Bury “kept their own counsel, and when Bury came up for trial it was the common opinion that he was guilty of the Whitechapel crimes and would make a full confession in the event of his being condemned to death”

“In height and build he answered the description of the suspect seen after two of the murders”

“On the day before his execution two detectives were sent from London to be present should he make a last statement. This I myself only learned years afterwards, so carefully guarded was the secret, but it shows the importance Scotland Yard attached to their discoveries”

Hastings reported, “the facts they gathered pointed more and more clearly to Bury being Jack the Ripper, but it was a slow task, entailing months of work, and they had been ordered to make nothing public”

Hastings wrote that Scotland Yard had not only been able to establish where Bury was staying on the night of the Chapman murder, but it had also “established where he had been staying on the nights of three other of the Whitechapel murders, and from the recollection of those who lived nearby, it was quite possible that he had the opportunity to commit them

“The home of Bury in the East End at the time of the Hanbury Street murder was traced, and again it was ascertained that on that night Bury had kept away from his home, and his manner on his return home the next afternoon suggested a madman”

Scotland Yard discovered that “he was in the habit of walking about very quietly and had often frightened people by his silent approach”

Scotland Yard learned that “on one occasion when he was definitely known to be staying in the East End at the time of a Ripper crime, he had absented himself from the house for that night in the most suspicious manner”

Scotland Yard learned that after returning to London following his August 1888 trip to Wolverhampton, Bury “had apparently constantly changed his address and although the police were able to trace several of these, there were important gaps in his history which they were never able to fill”

Scotland Yard was not able to establish that Bury actually worked—“if he carried on a business as a sawdust merchant the police were certainly never able to verify it”

Scotland Yard felt that “his description was very like that of the man who had been speaking to the young woman Kelly on the night of the crime”

Scotland Yard “had established the fact that he was missing from his lodgings on the night that Marie Kelly was done to death in her home in Dorset Street”

Scotland Yard learned that Ellen Bury “never used to dare ask” her husband “where he had been when he absented himself at night”

Of course Jon the police had no opinion and he was not a suspect. Stick to inanimate objects like steak knives for your attention John.

[Lewis C]

Hi George, that was the view eventually taken by Martin Fido, in his Ripperologist article "Rethinking Cohen and Kosminski".

I however, am still firmly of the belief that the Anderson's suspect is the best suspect for the Ripper, not just Stride.
Who that suspect actually was is a different matter.

Steve

In that article, Fido mentioned an article that he planned to write called "A Train of Research". Do you know if he ever wrote that article?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

I think the police did consider Bury a serious contender for the Whitechapel Murderer, after all they did send Inspector Abberline to Scotland to investigate the potential connection, although you are right that he was eliminated after being investigated - Nevertheless a serious person of interest to the police at the time.

What I read was the Scottish police called Scotland Yard and requested they come and look at some evidence, was it some of his writing?
I could be misremembering, but if this is correct, Scotland Yard were only responding to a request, they had no opinion one way or the other.
It was only after the interview they let it be known Bury is not a suspect.

[GBinOz]

Hi George, that was the view eventually taken by Martin Fido, in his Ripperologist article "Rethinking Cohen and Kosminski".

I however, am still firmly of the belief that the Anderson's suspect is the best suspect for the Ripper, not just Stride.
Who that suspect actually was is a different matter.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks, I didn't know that Fido drew that conclusion.

I tend to place more credence in the opinions of the actual police investigators, Abberline, Reid, Swanson, than the appointed hierarchy with no police experience such as Anderson and Warren. But I wouldn't argue against your belief either. Anderson would have been informed by the investigators, but then formed his own opinions.

Cheers, George

[etenguy]

William Henry Bury did not make their list.

Hi Wickerman

I think the police did consider Bury a serious contender for the Whitechapel Murderer, after all they did send Inspector Abberline to Scotland to investigate the potential connection, although you are right that he was eliminated after being investigated - Nevertheless a serious person of interest to the police at the time.

[etenguy]

So I agree, there is some support for an interruption with Polly in the existing evidence. Now with Liz, the reason anyone suggests an interruption there is not because the evidence suggests it....not because anyone saw anyone fleeing the scene, not because there is evidence that abdominal mutilations would be the next step taken....there is no evidence of any of that. The reason for suggesting Liz's killer was interrupted? Because the lack of any real Ripper evidence there, the geographical component, and the victim profile...women who, at some point, solicited. Then Kate is cited because her murder does resemble the first 2, and the argument is that it appears he was out killing on that night. But he NEVER killed anyone within city limits, and ONLY Liz is devoid of the stronger and oft repeated Ripper type of injuries. And Liz had been getting steady work, as recently as earlier that day...she did not have a compelling need to solicit, and certainly not with flowers and cachous as accoutrements. And she was sober and healthy.

Hi Michael

You are right to highlight some of the reasons to think Liz Stride was not murdered by the Whitechapel Murderer, but there are factors to support that she may have been. In addition to the factors I previously mentioned and those you list, which are quite compelling in my view - I have a couple of additional comments:
a) there were cachous found in her hand, which would tend to suggest she may have been soliciting or at least for some reason was considering at least one customer
b) you mention there was not evidence that abdominal mutilations would be the next step taken and so implying that was not evidence that this murder was going to develop into a ripper type murder - and you are of course right about the absence of mutilations - but there was the statement by Dr. George Bagster Phillips describing when the body was found that

the legs were drawn up with the feet close to the wall.

which is a position the ripper had used with other victims and was presumably a pre-requisite to the mutilations. Nowhere near conclusive - else there would not be a debate about including Stride as a ripper victim - but another factor that points to the possibility of her inclusion.

[S.Brett]

In 1887 Whitechapel Road was renumbered, but it's the same location (south side).

Thanks Scott! I did not know that.

[Wickerman]

wow wick. really surprised by this post of yours. Its probably the stupidest thing Ive ever seen you write.

"being there" is the basic criteria in winnowing out useless suspects. If you cant even place a suspect in england you dont even have a suspect at all. the closer to whitechapel and the east end the better. Bury was in the area. he passes the first hurdle.

Like I said - thousands were in the area, none of them were suspects. Being in the area does not make anyone a suspect, being in the area is a requirement.
Investigation has to whittle the thousands down, preferably to one.

youve got to be kidding me with this nonsensical statement. Bury was an actual SUSPECT by police at the time.

No he wasn't, Abberline said he wasn't - so what is this, another case of "You know best?"

Abberline was sent to interview him to see if there is cause for suspicion - we all know the result of that, Bury was not suspected by police.
"Bury was nothing but a drunken domestic murderer unconnected with the Whitechapel Murders" (JtR A-Z)
That was the end of it.
Smarten up man, the police ruled him out, they interviewed him to see if suspicion was valid, they concluded "no".

Being a 'suspect' is a legal state, it does not apply to everyone they interview.

The police do actually label a person as a suspect, they will interview hundreds in order to locate one suspect.

William Henry Bury did not make their list.

[Lewis C]

I suggest that amoungst those who have studied the case, Kosminski is highly regarded despite the DNA claim.

In the podcast section there is a recording with professor Turi King.
If you listen to it, you will find that Kosminski person after Kosminski person rejected the DNA outright.

So why is Kosminski popular?

Partly due to the work of Martin Fido, although flawed his 1987 book is still held in high regard, and quoted by many.
Partly due to the wonderful works by Rob House and John Malcolm.

However, I suggest the main reason is that he is named by three senior officers.

The point of course is Anderson doesn't give a name at all, with Macnaughten there is only a surname, in his very, very odd memo. And then Swanson who again gives only a surname.
We are left to ponder who that is.

With the publication of Swanson by Adam Wood, I think more people now realise that Swanson probably knew more about the murders at the time than anyone else, and certainly so since.

Steve

I agree that among those who have studied the case, Kosminski is highly regarded. I initially misunderstood Jon's post, thinking that when he said popular, he meant popular with the general public. In my experience, when someone in, say, Youtube comments cites Kosminski as their suspect, it's usually because of the DNA test. But yes, many who have studied the case also consider Kosminski one of the stronger suspects, but have better reasons than the DNA test for believing that.

[Scott Nelson]

Times (London), 15 November 1888:

"One arrest caused more than usual excitement. A man stared into the face of a woman in the WHITECHAPEL-ROAD, and she at once screamed out that he was "Jack the Ripper." The man was immediately surrounded by an excited and threatening crowd, from which he was rescued with some difficulty by the police. He was taken under a strong escort to the Commercial-street Police station, followed by an enormous mob of men and women, shouting and screaming at him in the most extraordinary manner. At the police-station the man proved to be a German, unable to speak a word of English. He explained through an interpreter that he arrived in London from Germany on Tuesday, and was to leave for America to-day, and confirmation of this statement having been obtained he was set at liberty"

Whitechapel Road/ Gertrude Smith (Whitechapel Road)/ Aaron Davis Cohen/N.Cohen you know...

Do you know this?

Gertrude Smet, 55 Whitechapel Road, Old Bailey records:

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18870228-326&div=t18870228-326&terms=Whitechapel#highlight

In fact she was Gertrude Smith, 255 Whitechapel Road:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/pers...gertrude-smith

Hi Karsten,

Yes, It's the same Gertrude who was described in the newspaper a year later as a brothel keeper. In 1887 Whitechapel Road was renumbered, but it's the same location (south side).

[Aethelwulf]

no you shouldnt leave. You post alot of good research and stuff on Bury, and you know I think Bury is one of the least weak suspects(I dont neccesarily count McKenzie, just think probably, but obviously I could be wrong), as he should be.

ha ha nah this place brings out the worst in me. I never argue with anyone in real life but this place seems to turn me into a right twat at times.

I'll part with my list of very fringe things I think people should follow up on if so inclined, or if even possible for that matter:

1. Is that really Stride's blood the wouster letter? She's an odd victim to claim to have taken blood from. Related, did anyone ever trace the origin of that little glass phial in mylett's pocket. Was he going to try and get some more was disturbed and shoved it in her pocket?
2. Is there a surviving record of that man that was arrested in Portsmouth with the scratched face a few days after the Farmer attack. He was apparently seen near the scene of the crime and was acting really odd when arrested. He was let go later. There some chalk messages there and a ripper letter I think.
3. Just where was Bury after Christmas '88. It's way out unlikely but his absence from whitechapel and his connection to an area very close to Bradford makes me uneasy. The weird letter, the odd similarities to kelly.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Does anyone seriously believe Jack the Ripper was nothing but a kid of 23 years old?

My opinion is that it wasn't Kosminski nor any of Anderson's 'low class Polish Jews'.

But, statistically, serial killers are most likely to begin in their twenties; and obviously that excludes murders that weren't linked to them.

Here are some serial killers whose first known murder was before they reached 30 years old:

Graham Young (aged 14), Edmund Kemper (15), Jeffrey Dahmer (18), Rose West (18), Myra Hindley (19), Steven Grieveson (19), Patrick MacKay (21), Robert Maudsley (21), Beverley Allitt (22), David Berkowitz (22), Kenneth Erskine (22), Kristen Gilbert (22), Cynthia Coffman (24), Peter Bryan (24), Richard Ramirez (24), H H Holmes (25), Ian Brady (25), Robert Napper (26), Fred West (26), Rodney Alcala (27), Judy Buenoano (28), Ted Bundy (28), Peter Manuel (29), Trevor Hardy (29), Dennis Rader (29), Peter Sutcliffe (29), John Wayne Gacy (29), Harold Shipman (29).

[Elamarna]

Does anyone seriously believe Jack the Ripper was nothing but a kid of 23 years old?

Very possibly.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I see the attention by the senior officers focussing on the Stride murder. I lean towards Kosminski for that murder only, and him not being the Ripper.

Cheers, George

Hi George, that was the view eventually taken by Martin Fido, in his Ripperologist article "Rethinking Cohen and Kosminski".

I however, am still firmly of the belief that the Anderson's suspect is the best suspect for the Ripper, not just Stride.
Who that suspect actually was is a different matter.

Steve

[GBinOz]

However, I suggest the main reason is that he is named by three senior officers.

The point of course is Anderson doesn't give a name at all, with Macnaughten there is only a surname, in his very, very odd memo. And then Swanson who again gives only a surname.
We are left to ponder who that is.

Hi Steve,

I see the attention by the senior officers focussing on the Stride murder. I lean towards Kosminski for that murder only, and him not being the Ripper.

Cheers, George