Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis C,

Emma Smith and Martha Tabram lived at 18 and 19 George St respectively, which is just south of George Street's intersection with Flower and Dean St, So they would fit the profile. McKenzie lived in Gun St near its intersection with Artillery Lane. To my mind this is outside the profile area, or on the fringe at best. Coles lived in Thrawl St, so she is back in area again.

I wouldn't rate any of your named suspects as being relevant to living in the profile area, but maybe our resident expert on profiling, Jeff Hamm, might like to chime in at this point.

Cheers, George

I think that Jeff will say that the Daily Mail article's notion that geographic profiling pinpoints the exact street that JtR lived on is a misunderstanding of what geographic profiling does. Flower and Dean Street might be the center of the profile, but that only means that it's the highest probability area for him to have lived in, but geographic profiling doesn't argue that he had to have lived right smack in the middle of the area. I'm pretty sure Levy lived close enough to the center to have a strong geographic profile, and I think Cohen and Kosminski did too. But if Jeff doesn't chime in in this thread, you can read his comments and look at his maps in the Geographic Profiling thread and decide for yourself.

[etenguy]

Which brings up a curious point.....One wonders why the killer burned some of the items. For light to work by? Wouldnt that be counterproductive to remaining unseen in that room on that night? He was apparently there a while, longer than any killer had stayed with a previous Canonical. Lighting up that room seems to me a reckless choice.

Hi Michael

I agree. I can think of no reasonable explanation for why the killer would burn items of clothing in the fire. But then we do not know that the killer burnt the items. I wonder whether someone else burnt the clothing earlier.

[Wickerman]

Mary Kellys story also includes details like she hadnt paid rent in over 2 1/2 weeks, that she was afraid of what she heard was happening to streetwalkers and as a result of that fear, and Joes insistence she didnt sell herself, she hadnt been working the streets in the weeks leading up to her murder. Joe had been giving her money, even after moving out. Clean clothes that Maria left that last afternoon and then left a coin for Mary might indicate that she was doing odd jobs when she could, like helping Maria with the laundry. A pump outside her window, a fire place, and a washtub under her bed and folded clothes that belonged to Maria clients say thats possible.......

Barnet makes a curious point in his statement to Abberline. Although he seems to want everyone to believe Mary abstained from streetwalking to the very end, he let something slip, he says: "...until last Tuesday week when in consequence of not earning sufficient money to give her and her resorting to prostitution, I resolved on leaving her..."
So she had returned to her old habits for a few days at least.

[Wickerman]

I was under the impression that Dr Bond's surviving report to Anderson, stated that Dr Bond thought between 1 and 2 in the morning was most likely. Not that it matters a great deal given the time that had passed and the state of Mary's body. They had a job on their hands to come up with most likely in any meaningful sense.

As for Dr Phillips, his post-mortem report hasn't survived has it? Which is a shame for us given that he was the most experienced and qualified doctor.

Quite right, I meant to post it but I figured everyone was familiar enough. Yes, 1:00-2:00 & the press cutting 2:00-3:00, they are not too wide of the mark, considering in this period no two estimates could be expected to get the same results.
Right again, had Phillips's post-mortem report survived I imagine it being a small book. We just look at McKenzie's and that was 5-6 pages long.

Though it does seem Bond was more influenced by the rate of digestion, one wonders where he got the information from. I would agree that when food is found in the stomach the doctors would immediately inform Abberline as they know this is potential evidence for timing the death.
Abberline must have set his men out to canvas local eateries to see if anyone remembers this red haired young woman on Friday morning. It's a detail we have not read about in the press.

[c.d.]

Also how likely is it that someone would barge into the room without knocking? And if they did knock and got no answer wouldn't they probably just go away?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Which brings up a curious point.....One wonders why the killer burned some of the items. For light to work by? Wouldnt that be counterproductive to remaining unseen in that room on that night? He was apparently there a while, longer than any killer had stayed with a previous Canonical. Lighting up that room seems to me a reckless choice.

Perhaps he wanted to see the results of his work close up.

Perhaps Mary told him that a fire was a signal to others in the building that she was with someone and didn't want to be disturbed.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Quite true, all the other victims were part-time, they'd had families but had fallen on hard times. The subsequent break-up led to them turning to the streets as the only means of survival.
Mary Kelly's story, if true, tells us she was a full-time prostitute, and living in a brothel, it was all she knew how to do.

Mary Kellys story also includes details like she hadnt paid rent in over 2 1/2 weeks, that she was afraid of what she heard was happening to streetwalkers and as a result of that fear, and Joes insistence she didnt sell herself, she hadnt been working the streets in the weeks leading up to her murder. Joe had been giving her money, even after moving out. Clean clothes that Maria left that last afternoon and then left a coin for Mary might indicate that she was doing odd jobs when she could, like helping Maria with the laundry. A pump outside her window, a fire place, and a washtub under her bed and folded clothes that belonged to Maria clients say thats possible.

Which brings up a curious point.....One wonders why the killer burned some of the items. For light to work by? Wouldnt that be counterproductive to remaining unseen in that room on that night? He was apparently there a while, longer than any killer had stayed with a previous Canonical. Lighting up that room seems to me a reckless choice.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Yes FM, I'd have to pull the books out myself, it's just quotations from Phillips are rare to nonexistent, he never spoke to the press, so I'm cautious that this 2-8 reference may be second hand.

It's Dr Bond's estimate (from 10th Nov.) that I feel is likely to have been a reflection of Phillips own conclusion. As you know Phillips was in charge of the post-mortem, Dr Bond + others, were all present at the invitation of Dr Phillips. So I'm not sure Dr Bond would give Anderson a time of death that totally conflicts with the conclusion of Dr Phillips?

Then theirs the so-called official conclusion published in the Sunday press (from the P.M. of Sat. Morn.), published in Lloyds Weekly News.
Their conclusion being she was murdered between 2-3:00am Friday morning.


Lloyds Weekly News, 11 Nov. 1888.

I was under the impression that Dr Bond's surviving report to Anderson, stated that Dr Bond thought between 1 and 2 in the morning was most likely. Not that it matters a great deal given the time that had passed and the state of Mary's body. They had a job on their hands to come up with most likely in any meaningful sense.

As for Dr Phillips, his post-mortem report hasn't survived has it? Which is a shame for us given that he was the most experienced and qualified doctor.

[Elamarna]

Exceptional post.

May I ask whether this includes other "potential" victims like McKenzie and Coles?
Although it will sound unpopular I believe it's better to include the other potential victims in addition to the canonical 5 because it's better to have them than to not have them as then we have the most complete picture possible and then can adapt it accordingly for those who are staunch Canonical 5 believers.
I would also add the Pinchin Street Torso and the Torso found under New Scotland Yard building to be even more controversial.

Once there's a map that illustrates the absolute maximum potential of Canonical 5, potential other victims and the torso killings, then it will give the absolute maximum number possible in terms of map locations.

In terms of the book that implicates Barnett, I agree that there are countless others that also lived/lodged/worked in that area and so the objectivity is lost and it nullifies the significance of the maps intention to be impartial.

What's he biggest mistake that ANY book on the ripper makes?... Almost every publication is written with a favourable suspect on mind depending on the authors beliefs.
But I believe that a map of this kind NEEDS to remain impartial in order for biase not to creep in and then lose objectivity.

The map you have shown is brilliant but I think it doesn't tell the whole picture (quite literally)

Is there a map like the one you've shown BUT including all the other extended parameters I mentioned?

RD

Inside Bucks Row, gives maps for not just the lodging houses Mary Ann Nichols stayed at in Whitechapel, but also maps of most places she lived during her life.


Steve

[Wickerman]

Cheers Jon.

Based on Dr Phillips' inquest testimony relating to the other murders, he doesn't come across as the type of person who would give a one hour timeframe in Mary's circumstance and delay in examining her body.

As I say, I'm pretty sure 2am to 8am was written by Paul Begg or Stewart Evans or both, but I just can't find the source document to support that statement.

Yes FM, I'd have to pull the books out myself, it's just quotations from Phillips are rare to nonexistent, he never spoke to the press, so I'm cautious that this 2-8 reference may be second hand.

It's Dr Bond's estimate (from 10th Nov.) that I feel is likely to have been a reflection of Phillips own conclusion. As you know Phillips was in charge of the post-mortem, Dr Bond + others, were all present at the invitation of Dr Phillips. So I'm not sure Dr Bond would give Anderson a time of death that totally conflicts with the conclusion of Dr Phillips?

Then theirs the so-called official conclusion published in the Sunday press (from the P.M. of Sat. Morn.), published in Lloyds Weekly News.
Their conclusion being she was murdered between 2-3:00am Friday morning.


Lloyds Weekly News, 11 Nov. 1888.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The first five lines of this snippet might be what you recall reading.
This is a reference to Friday though.


Daily Telegraph, 12 Nov. 1888.

Not sure about the 2-8 reference though

Cheers Jon.

Based on Dr Phillips' inquest testimony relating to the other murders, he doesn't come across as the type of person who would give a one hour timeframe in Mary's circumstance and delay in examining her body.

As I say, I'm pretty sure 2am to 8am was written by Paul Begg or Stewart Evans or both, but I just can't find the source document to support that statement.

[Wickerman]

Where does the idea MJK was not a regular prostitute come from RD?

The general consensus is that she was the most regular of all the C5.

It does seem that she had stopped for a while, when she was living with Barnett, and had only recently gone back to it.

But I have to say, I have never heard the suggestion she was not regular compared to the other victims before.
Even Rubenhold does not go there.

Would be interested in you evidence and understanding of this.

Steve

Quite true, all the other victims were part-time, they'd had families but had fallen on hard times. The subsequent break-up led to them turning to the streets as the only means of survival.
Mary Kelly's story, if true, tells us she was a full-time prostitute, and living in a brothel, it was all she knew how to do.

[Wickerman]

What's he biggest mistake that ANY book on the ripper makes?... Almost every publication is written with a favourable suspect on mind depending on the authors beliefs.

How right you are, and this is the main reason I rarely buy suspect books new. There are exceptions, but for the most part I wait until I see the book in a used book store.

[Wickerman]

My understanding is that Dr Phillips' TOD would have been calculated during the examination on Friday afternoon rather than at the post mortem on Saturday morning. Can somebody correct me in the event I have that wrong.

The first five lines of this snippet might be what you recall reading.
This is a reference to Friday though.


Daily Telegraph, 12 Nov. 1888.

Not sure about the 2-8 reference though

[Michael W Richards]

I have no problem with that, but if you're going to include all of those victims, then Tabram should be included too, and maybe even Emma Smith.

Emma Smith was killed by a group of men, she was not mutilated and Martha Tabram was stabbed to death, and she was not mutilated. The Torso murders went back almost 10 years and were continuing, these were not new acts that only happened during a 2 1/2 month window of time when 5 women were murdered within 1 single square mile. There is evidence that Annie Chapman was killed so her killer could do post mortem exactly what he did do. Odd how people dont recognize just how specific that was, and instead are willing to add any woman who was killed in London in 1888 to a Ripper group.

Maybe stick to the most probable victim list, women who were killed within that square mile during that same period that had severely cut throats and mutilated abdomens.