Room 13 Miller's Court

Hello,

I just want to say that Ive discussed this issue with Sam before, and if anyone was shoving the ideas down the others throat, it was me. Because Ive always held the belief that Elizabeth could hear Mary sometimes both inside and outside of #13. In recent months Ive come to suspect that "oh-murder" was uttered by Mary, in annoyance, while her door was open. I feel it may be the most compelling evidence that she was in her room at that time answering the door, not entering through it from the court.

But I felt badly knowing that my post caused any friction between anyone, however brief. I disagree with Sam on somethings, and its nice of my Welsh friend to even bother addressing those comments, but he always maintains an even-keel perspective. As do posters such as our thread starter.

Best regards all.

[Stewart P Evans]

'Good Old Boy'

I am not doing so in the least, Stewart - I like to think that I have more integrity than that.

If there are reasonable grounds for revisiting erstwhile-held beliefs (which I myself share with everybody else, I hasten to add) about the position of Prater's room, then I see no harm in doing so. In fact, it's only right that we do - if it makes sense. In this case I believe it does.

Yours affectionately, etc.

I do not for a moment suggest that you are doing anything underhanded Gareth,* in fact it is good to raise such points as this erroneous report in the Daily Telegraph of 10 November 1888 as it causes one to examine things that may have been ignored in the past. Your point is valid.

However, there comes a time, surely, when one should modify one's opinions or fall in with what is becoming overwhelmingly obvious. To this end I shall be starting a separate thread on this aspect as I feel that this particular thread is not the place to discuss a different subject to that of the thread. It is tangential and was raised after I posted an image showing 'Prater's window.'

* I actually know that Gareth is a 'good old boy' as we say in these parts and it must be obvious to all that he is highly intelligent and very likeable. (This is fact, not false flattery).

[Sam Flynn]

There you go Gareth wriggling and improvising again.

I am not doing so in the least, Stewart - I like to think that I have more integrity than that.

If there are reasonable grounds for revisiting erstwhile-held beliefs (which I myself share with everybody else, I hasten to add) about the position of Prater's room, then I see no harm in doing so. In fact, it's only right that we do - if it makes sense. In this case I believe it does.

Yours affectionately, etc.

[Stewart P Evans]

The Star

Elizabeth Prater from the Star -

[Stewart P Evans]

Wriggling

Hi Mike,Prater lived practically alone (her cat excepted), and was one of the witnesses in attendance at the inquest - so clearly this girl wasn't Prater, or had anything to do with her. Perhaps this girl had some connection to the couple said to have occupied the room above Kelly in the Telegraph of 10th Nov - a daughter, perhaps, or a young wife.

There you go Gareth wriggling and improvising again. As Suzi says the use of the plural re- windows, and the fact that the group was in the yard, means it could be referring to any window that looked down on the scene. And how do you know that Prater hadn't left a friend in her room to look after the cat? Or even that a friend was then staying with her as she was upset by what had happened? No, you simply don't know and you are using speculation and assumptions to bolster your faltering theory. As I previously showed, the official written version of Prater's statement clearly shows that she stated she lived in the room above the deceased's. For those who may be interested here is the full PMG piece -

[Suzi]

I know what you're suggesting, Gareth, but 'windows above' clearly does not have to mean from Room 20. In fact, in my mind it would be referring to the uniformity of windows from the upper floor of the west side of Millers Court. If from Prater's single window they'd just say 'window above'.

Why do I have 'Only You' by Yazoo now running through my head?

PHILIP

Blimey!!! UP the meds Philip!
Mind you from Stewart's pic of Mrs P's window there appears to be more than one window.........or at least one big one

[Suzi]

Hi Sam-

The CAT lived above Mary and kept Mrs P as staff!...

The young girl is interesting though.....maybe it wasn't a young girl but the mysterious/probably fictional young boy alleged to reside at No 13!

Suz x

[George Hutchinson]

I know what you're suggesting, Gareth, but 'windows above' clearly does not have to mean from Room 20. In fact, in my mind it would be referring to the uniformity of windows from the upper floor of the west side of Millers Court. If from Prater's single window they'd just say 'window above'.

Why do I have 'Only You' by Yazoo now running through my head?

PHILIP

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

What about the section where it mentions a girl looking out into the court from her window....above....the two below.

Prater lived practically alone (her cat excepted), and was one of the witnesses in attendance at the inquest - so clearly this girl wasn't Prater, or had anything to do with her. Perhaps this girl had some connection to the couple said to have occupied the room above Kelly in the Telegraph of 10th Nov - a daughter, perhaps, or a young wife.

[Sam Flynn]

That is the exact quote from the PMG. There is something else interesting to me here. The reporter says 'at last the key was procured'. Did they fit a new lock after breaking the door down?

The police had fitted a padlock to the door after Kelly's corpse was removed from the room, Chava. It's likely that it was this padlock key to which the PMG reporter was referring.

What about the section where it mentions a girl looking out into the court from her window....above....the two below. Praters courtyard window?

Cheers.

[Celesta]

Oh, for a better shot of that door. This is very interesting Chava. The shot might well have been penecontemporaneous with the murder.

[Chava]

The entrance to the court was held by a couple of policemen, and it was so narrow that we could pass up in single file. It was only about three yards long, and then we were at the door which is numbered 13. The two windows which look into the little court were boarded up, and had apparently been newly whitewashed. From the windows above a girl looked down upon us quite composedly, and several pots of beer were brought in during our stay to comfort the denizens of the court. At last the key was procured, and the room was surveyed in batches. The inspector, holding a candle stuck in a bottle, stood at the head of the filthy, bloodstained bed, and repeated the horrible details with appalling minuteness. He indicated with one hand the bloodstains on the wall, and point with the other to the pools which had ebbed out on to the mattress. The little table was still on the left of the bedstead, which occupied the larger portion of the room. A farthing dip in a bottle did not serve to illuminate the fearful gloom, but I was able to see what a wretched hole the poor murdered woman called "home". The only attempts at decoration were a couple of engravings, one, "The Fisherman's Widow", stuck over the mantelpiece: while in the corner was an open cupboard, containing a few bits of pottery, some ginger-beer bottles, and a bit of bread on a plate.

That is the exact quote from the PMG. There is something else interesting to me here. The reporter says 'at last the key was procured'. Did they fit a new lock after breaking the door down? Or was this an original key? I would assume it was, since the jurors etc had to hang around waiting for it. There were two cops securing the entrance to the passage, and the jurors were accompanied by a senior policeman. I can't believe he wouldn't have had a key on his person if the police had changed the locks. If this was an original key, where did it come from? McCarthy broke the door with an axe to get at the body. He wouldn't have had to do that if he had a key. And now it appears that he did...

[Sam Flynn]

According to the Pall Mall Gazette's account of the inquest, the windows looking out into the yard were boarded-up and whitewashed when the reporter accompanied the jurors to see the scene of the crime. So that pic was probably taken very shortly after the murders.

That's an extremely significant point in terms of verifying the contemporaneousness of the image - if the PMG account is true, that is. I can't see that the panes would have been thoroughly "un-whitewashed" and restored to a gleaming (albeit broken) condition of transparency later; and neither is it likely that new windows were installed that somehow got smashed, only to appear similar to how they would have looked in Nov 88.

[Chava]

According to the Pall Mall Gazette's account of the inquest, the windows looking out into the yard were boarded-up and whitewashed when the reporter accompanied the jurors to see the scene of the crime. The inquest was very quick after the murders and the crime-scene was still basically intact. (I am assuming the guy actually saw this, rather than spending a couple of bob to hear the story from a juror. The description of the swearing of the jury etc rings true enough to other accounts.) So that pic was probably taken very shortly after the murders.