Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn.


C'mon Lynn, take a dash more water with it

I listed them in post 429.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=249159&postcount=429

Here's a more precise breakdown.
An imposter must select a:

1) - Kelly family, and pose as a

2) - daughter who..

3) - was born in 1864 +/- 2 yrs?

4) - was born in Ireland.

5) - moved to Wales.....

6) - .....before 1880 +/- 2 yrs?

7) - has seven brothers.

8) - has one sister.


Ok, Lynn, if eight coincidences are not extraordinary enough, how many would you accept?

And, anyone else can help out here, how many Kelly families fit this same criteria in the census records?

I think it is astonishing.

Regards, Jon S.

also-

- MJK also claimed to have a sister.

Brymbo-mary had just one sister.

Jon, just a quickie concerning coincidence #8. Brymbo Mary had two sisters-Bridget b c 1859 and Elizabeth b c 1870.

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks. Perhaps John Hubert or Hubert John? Of course, John seems the easier choice.

Cheers.
LC

perhaps.

and perhaps some paperwork might someday be found.

But sometimes called names are simply off the wall and people looking back 100 years later might never figure them out.

A woman I know is officialy named Glenna. Her grandfather said "I'm going to call her Susie."

He did and everyone else always has.

A man I know was named Jerry Alford Jr., his youngest sister started calling him "Petey John" and thus he is always known -- 40-some years later.

Unusual, sure. But names are strange things and the official names are not necessarily the name everyone knows a person by.

[curious]

also-

Jon, just a quickie concerning coincidence #8. Brymbo Mary had two sisters-Bridget b c 1859 and Elizabeth b c 1870.

Might that fact be very important in looking for MJK as a family acquaintance?

You can almost be sure that any person taking the family as her own then knew the Kelly family prior to the birth of Elizabeth.

Coming from a big family, I almost forget (and certainly don't know) a lot of the younger cousins who were not born at the time I was attending family gatherings with my parents.

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn.


C'mon Lynn, take a dash more water with it

I listed them in post 429.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=249159&postcount=429

Here's a more precise breakdown.
An imposter must select a:

1) - Kelly family, and pose as a

2) - daughter who..

3) - was born in 1864 +/- 2 yrs?

4) - was born in Ireland.

5) - moved to Wales.....

6) - .....before 1880 +/- 2 yrs?

7) - has seven brothers.

8) - has one sister.


Ok, Lynn, if eight coincidences are not extraordinary enough, how many would you accept?

And, anyone else can help out here, how many Kelly families fit this same criteria in the census records?

I think it is astonishing.

Regards, Jon S.

I don't know if this is what you had in mind, Jon but I think that the Church St Flint Mary Kelly (her second name was Ann but so was Brymbo Mary's) written about by Chris Scott in "Will the real Mary Kelly..." can also fit 7 similar coincidences as set out in your list and one different one:


1. Family name is Kelly
2. Mary is daughter of the family
3. was born c 1865
4. Was born in Ireland
5. Moved to Wales
6. Before 1880 ( 1870/1 in this case)
7. Has one sister
8. Father is named John Kelly

[Debra A]

Might that fact be very important in looking for MJK as a family acquaintance?

You can almost be sure that any person taking the family as her own then knew the Kelly family prior to the birth of Elizabeth.

Coming from a big family, I almost forget (and certainly don't know) a lot of the younger cousins who were not born at the time I was attending family gatherings with my parents.

I'm just correcting the fact that Jon said Brymbo Mary only had one sister, Curious.
Interesting as it is, I don't really go with Jon's theory that the real MJK might have been an acquaintance of the family of Brymbo Mary and using her details. I think the Flint Kelly's fit as many of the coincidence criteria too, don't they?

[RavenDarkendale]

perhaps.

and perhaps some paperwork might someday be found.

But sometimes called names are simply off the wall and people looking back 100 years later might never figure them out.

A woman I know is officialy named Glenna. Her grandfather said "I'm going to call her Susie."

He did and everyone else always has.

A man I know was named Jerry Alford Jr., his youngest sister started calling him "Petey John" and thus he is always known -- 40-some years later.

Unusual, sure. But names are strange things and the official names are not necessarily the name everyone knows a person by.

Chuckle Yes, this happens a lot. My Uncle's name was Riley Fred Wymer but he was called "Bud". An Aunt was Leela Mae Falkie who was called "Pat". My nephew is Malcolm Edward Porter, affectionately known as "Bobby".

[Debra A]

Hello Velma. Thanks. Perhaps John Hubert or Hubert John? Of course, John seems the easier choice.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, all
Hubert Kelly was in fact Hubert Thomas Kelly, as noted by Livia Trivia ages back. He died in 1883. Surely Thomas would have been the obvious choice of name if he wasn't happy with Hubert?

[lynn cates]

weaker

Hello Debs. Thanks. That does weaken the case a bit.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Tommy?

Hello (again) Debs. The "Thomas" weakens it a bit more. If not Hubert, one might expect "Tommy."

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

also-

Jon, just a quickie concerning coincidence #8. Brymbo Mary had two sisters-Bridget b c 1859 and Elizabeth b c 1870.

Thanks Debs.
Yes, there could be a distinction between talking about "one" sister, which she did, and enumerating "one" sister, which she did not.

Perhaps I should have said, at least one sister.

The claim that MJK had a sister who was respectable, worked at the markets, and who loved her dearly (words to that effect), almost reads like she is referring to an older sister, which was not listed in the 1881 census.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Could you live with Barnet concocting the stories for "MJK"?

Cheers.
LC

Regardless who spread it about, my question is, where did the information come from.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Look what turned up.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

That is how I feel about the descriptions of Millen and McDermott turning up.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

I'm just correcting the fact that Jon said Brymbo Mary only had one sister, Curious.
Interesting as it is, I don't really go with Jon's theory that the real MJK might have been an acquaintance of the family of Brymbo Mary and using her details. I think the Flint Kelly's fit as many of the coincidence criteria too, don't they?

Hi, Debra,
Indeed they do. Do you have a pet theory that you're checking out and willing to share?

I was just thinking along Jon's line of thought and could see how it might happen that someone taking someone else's identity might not know or include a younger sister . . .

Just a mental exploration. At this point, MJK is an enigma to me.

curious

[Michael W Richards]

Provisionally, working with one story MJK shared with Barnet.

This is the radical descent, almost suggestive of an attempt to disappear from someone?:

What did she do when she came to London? - She lived in a house at the West-end - a gay house - with a madam.

How long did she live there? - As far as she described it to me, a few weeks.
Then some gentleman asked her to go to France, and she went, but, as she described it to me, she didn't like it, and came back in about a week or two's time.

Did she tell you the name of the place in France? - She told me, but she did not remain long, as she did not like it.

Did she live in France long? - No, about a fortnight.

When she returned from France where did she tell you she lived? - In the Ratcliff-highway.


The story she describes appears to have her fall from the high life to the bottom of the barrel in two weeks?
So perhaps this Gentleman was not too pleased with her?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

It is this story that intrigues me the most about Mary, and one that I think may be the key to my "pet theory" that Mary was exposed to high ranking Irish Self Rule factions. The story suggests to me a courtesan sort of role, perhaps Mary spoke French...(we do hear of Marie Jeanette as a reference to her in her past), and the dresses she used at this bordello seemed to have some monetary value, ...(she apparently sought to recover them after she had left the location),... suggesting to me that the circles she traveled in at one time prior to her death were more prosperous than her final surroundings.

Does that mean she had a call girl status vs street girl? Or...and more probable to me anyway,...did her Irish background, her good looks and her ability to mingle with upper income folks or folks with access to large sums of money...like the Irish Terrorists of the period, ...place her among company in France that scared her?

If so, that would explain a threat to her from Irish rebels if she left without their permission...she would have known individuals and plans....it would explain why the Police would know of her and perhaps seek her out for information, it would explain why she might assume another identity....small town girl fearful of the people she was exposed to, it would suggest that George Hutchinson was being truthful when he came into the station Monday night...his suspect is almost identical to descriptions of a senior ranking Irish double spy, it would explain the interest of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the murder scene on Monday morning,...and it might address what information Kate may have intended to sell that got her killed.

My point earlier on money and motive when it comes to murder....in the protection of information held by secretive agencies, be they malicious or passive, large sums of money available and acts of extreme violence are not unexpected. In this particular city at that particular time there were ample supplies of both types of men in secretive roles. Some officiated the Ripper investigations, some planned dynamite events.

When these murders occurred there was heightened sensitivity when it came to issues of security within their own Parliament,....although no link to any of that turmoil has ever been discovered with direct implications on any Ripper murder,... I feel that there are links. Most probably, with Mary Kelly.

Best regards, Happy Ho Ho.

[Wickerman]

I don't know if this is what you had in mind, Jon but I think that the Church St Flint Mary Kelly (her second name was Ann but so was Brymbo Mary's) written about by Chris Scott in "Will the real Mary Kelly..." can also fit 7 similar coincidences as set out in your list and one different one:


1. Family name is Kelly
2. Mary is daughter of the family
3. was born c 1865
4. Was born in Ireland
5. Moved to Wales
6. Before 1880 ( 1870/1 in this case)
7. Has one sister
8. Father is named John Kelly

Thankyou Debs, yes minor differences can be dealt with (Ann?), its the similarities that are unique.

Regards, Jon S.