Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[lynn cates]

grandchildren

Hello Jon, Debs. I found this old photograph of Brymbo Mary's grandchildren.

Mary went back to her birth county in 1891 and married a man named McDermott (oh, please). She spent time in America but returned to Galway to die, ca. 1940.

(Cute little buggers.)

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

I'll share a lesson I learned the hard way. Never ever answer to anything you don't want to be answering to 15 years later.

Says the woman who answered to "Duck" as a 15 year old. And keeps getting nailed in the head ever since.

[RivkahChaya]

Does this suggest they asked the police for anonymity, so why couldn't a regular soldier, her brother?

Regards, Jon S.

Wait-- what are we talking about with regard to anonymity? I thought we were talking about the police actually conducting the investigation with the knowledge that the victim wasn't really named Mary Jane Kelly, but they wouldn't release he real name, or include any sort of "victimology" in the investigation, as though the victim had not even been identified, in order to sort of divorce her from her family.

If that's not what we are talking about, but rather simply talking about the police not acknowledging the presence of the family in London, and questioning them discreetly and off-the-record, that is more believable. They might have done that for the other victims, had the request been made, but it wasn't, and since their families were close by, there was more word-of-mouth communication.

[Wickerman]

Wait-- what are we talking about with regard to anonymity? I thought we were talking about the police actually conducting the investigation with the knowledge that the victim wasn't really named Mary Jane Kelly, but they wouldn't release he real name, or include any sort of "victimology" in the investigation, as though the victim had not even been identified, in order to sort of divorce her from her family.

If that's not what we are talking about, but rather simply talking about the police not acknowledging the presence of the family in London, and questioning them discreetly and off-the-record, that is more believable. They might have done that for the other victims, had the request been made, but it wasn't, and since their families were close by, there was more word-of-mouth communication.

I see we have two debates concerning the elusive brother of MJK.

It was suggested that the police may have been aware of MJK's real name and they kept it quiet, so that would also apply to any relatives, brother, parents, etc.
But, surely there would need to be a significant reason for them doing so?

Alternately, the family once contacted, knowing the life their daughter had been living, after being contacted by police, may have requested anonymity on their arrival in England, which also would be extended to the brother.

We do have a group of relatives reported in the press on their arrival in, I think it was Liverpool?
We also have a group of people mentioned at the gravesite, while the cemetery gates were closed to the public. We do not know the identity of this group.

Debs provided a snippet of info concerning a payment for the burial, I think it was a partial payment? I'd need to look it up but I thought there remained a question as to who payed the rest of the cost, or whether this partial was even paid? Meaning, perhaps someone turned up to cover the whole cost?
I'm a little unclear as to how we interpreted it at the time.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

It was suggested that the police may have been aware of MJK's real name and they kept it quiet, so that would also apply to any relatives, brother, parents, etc.

Oh, I hate weaselly, agent-deleted sentences like that. Who suggested?

It seems to me if it was that risky to be associated with her, they just wouldn't have gone to the trouble of traveling all the way from Ireland. They don't know, before going to the trouble and expense, that the police are going to agree to keep things quiet, and it's not like they could call ahead and set it up. Also, the inquest and funeral took place pretty quickly; if there were a lot of secretive machinations going on before the family could decide where to be or how to arrange things before it could even proceed, I think it would have taken longer.

This sounds like a made-up story to account for some people no one recognized, who could have been gawkers, for all anyone knows, that got confabulated with stories of MJK's supposed assumed names. If there's any grain of truth, I would bet it's rubber-neckers at a Ripper victim's funeral, who didn't want to admit they never met the victim, and were just there out of curiosity, so they said they were "distant," relatives, which later got turned into "geographically distant."

[Wickerman]

Oh, I hate weaselly, agent-deleted sentences like that. Who suggested?

Ahem.......Richard.

"It is not inconceivable that her real name was known to the police, with sources Barnett, and McCarthy[ the latter via letters from her family] and it is entirely possible that her real identity was protected, to give her family dignity, and the reason we cannot trace her brother is because of the alias Kelly. his real name being John?........."

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=249194&postcount=442

[Wickerman]

This sounds like a made-up story to account for some people no one recognized, who could have been gawkers, for all anyone knows, that got confabulated with stories of MJK's supposed assumed names. If there's any grain of truth, I would bet it's rubber-neckers at a Ripper victim's funeral, who didn't want to admit they never met the victim, and were just there out of curiosity, so they said they were "distant," relatives, which later got turned into "geographically distant."

Oh brother....

"The floral ornaments were afterwards raised to be placed upon the grave, and the filling-up was completed in a few moments, and was watched by a small crowd of people. There was a very large concourse of people outside the gates, who were refused admission until after the funeral was over."
http://www.casebook.org/press_report...n/w881124.html

Your rubber-neckers were distant alright, they were all locked outside.

[lynn cates]

Who knew?

Hello Jon.

"It was suggested that the police may have been aware of MJK's real name and they kept it quiet, so that would also apply to any relatives, brother, parents, etc."

I doubt seriously that the vast majority of police knew her real name. I just find it hard to believe that all that august group could have kept it quiet.

If "MJK" were such as I suspect her to have been, only the upper echelon at the Met--and only those with some relationship to either Special Branch or Sir Ed's group--would have known this.

A possible candidate would have been Sir Robert who made it round to Miller's Court that afternoon. He and Monro had inadvertently stumbled upon the names of many of Sir Ed's people. He also was situated with Beach (Le Caron).

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alarm

Hello Rivkah.

"Also, the inquest and funeral took place pretty quickly"

Right you are. Do those facts cause any alarms to ring?

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Hello Rivkah.

"Also, the inquest and funeral took place pretty quickly"

Right you are. Do those facts cause any alarms to ring?

Cheers.
LC

Maybe a body that was super-heated, and flayed, was rotting pretty quickly.

I know that by the time of the US Civil War, there was means to embalm some pretty badly wounded bodies, in order to send them back to their families for burial (another reason the South went broke, BTW), but would there have been the means to embalm a body that had been butchered like MJK's, while waiting for the family to arrive from a distance? Or, since it was almost winter, a means to keep the body cold?

[curious]

Hello Rivkah.

"Also, the inquest and funeral took place pretty quickly"

Right you are. Do those facts cause any alarms to ring?

Cheers.
LC

Merry Christmas, Lynn.

Hope you're enjoying the day.

Since the inquest was so abbreviated (any ideas why?) and the funeral took place so quickly . . .

Just interested in what your thoughts are in this area and what bells are ringing for you, you always have an interesting take on things.

Also, RivkahChaya, perhaps it was not the family requesting anonymity. Would they have known to? But once the authorities realized what had happened, the upper echelon brought the family in quietly for the family's protection. Would that be a possibility? Perhaps, rumor and speculation (I forget the source about the brother's concern) turned the anonymity into it being about the brother so no one would suspect the real reason.

Thanks,

Velma

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"It was suggested that the police may have been aware of MJK's real name and they kept it quiet, so that would also apply to any relatives, brother, parents, etc."

I doubt seriously that the vast majority of police knew her real name. I just find it hard to believe that all that august group could have kept it quiet.

Agreed.
I can accept that the family might have requested anonymity, assuming they came to the funeral.

Ok, the piece I was trying to remember was published in Manchester, nothing to do with Liverpool. It was posted by Scott Nelson.

"...The relatives of the murdered woman, who were expected in London yesterday, have not yet arrived. The deceased had been of late years a cause of great trouble to her friends, who would not be anxious to put themselves to any trouble on her account..."
Manchester Evening News, November 15, 1888


Scott then posted his opinion..

The implication is that the story broke first in the northern counties (where it's reported) because that's the direction by which Kelly's family or friends made their way to London. For some reason the London press may have been been given orders (by police?) to sequester information on the family or friends arrival by the time they reached in London --apparently after her inquest had ended. Thus, the family could cooperate with the police without interference from the London press.


Debs then posted a photo of a news clipping, which said..

"The funeral of the murdered woman will not take place until after the arrival from Wales of some of her relatives and friends, who are expected to reach London this evening.
If they are unable to provide the necessary funeral expenses Mr H Wilton of 119 High Street, Shoreditch, has guaranteed that the unfortunate woman shall not be buried in a paupers grave"
Morning Post, 14 Nov. 1888.


The press do seem to have been under the impression that the police did look for her family/friends in Wales, the family/friends were located, and the family/friends were expected for the funeral.

The small group at the grave side are not identified anywhere that I can see.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

nice and long

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

"Maybe a body that was super-heated, and flayed, was rotting pretty quickly."

That would certainly explain a quick internment. But why not a nice, long dramatic inquest--as with Polly and Annie?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

If "MJK" were such as I suspect her to have been, only the upper echelon at the Met--and only those with some relationship to either Special Branch or Sir Ed's group--would have known this.

A possible candidate would have been Sir Robert who made it round to Miller's Court that afternoon. He and Monro had inadvertently stumbled upon the names of many of Sir Ed's people. He also was situated with Beach (Le Caron).

Hi Lynn.
Don't we read that once her murder was reported, didn't cabs full of high officials show up in Dorset St.?

Wasn't such a turnout, especially of the day of the Lord Mayor's Show, a little extraordinary? I mean, wouldn't these officials have had their morning planned because of the show, yet they took time out to visit a slum in Dorset St.?

I find it hard to see MJK as some kind of Mata Hari but her life and death require some of the most searching questions.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

1887

Hello Velma. Thanks. The same to you I'm sure.

I daresay MacDonald handled the inquest simply BECAUSE he could be quick. Baxter was unfamiliar with the word.

Now, why would anyone want a quick inquest? Well, for the same reason Sir Winston had to redact his message to parliament in 1910--after Sir Robert started to sing. A thorough investigation of "MJK" might have shown HM government's complicity in the affairs of 1887. And that could have brought down the whole thing.

Cheers.
LC