Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Any indication that Hubert was EVER John?

Cheers.
LC

At this point Lynn, I can only repeat what I wrote earlier:

"Small details that appear inconsistent in the face of so many coincidences might explain themselves if she is ever located."

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

" . . . it is entirely possible that her real identity was protected . . ."

I daresay.

". . . to give her family dignity."

Perhaps not.

If "dignity" means "not having the stigma of being related to either a prostitute or a Ripper victim," then I second your "Perhaps not," as that dignity was not offered to any of the other victims, and Kelly's family wasn't unusual in any way, as far as we know (or, since we can't find them, maybe they were, but it doesn't sound like it-- generally people don't boast of less than the truth); in fact, since they lived, from our best information, in Ireland, and not the near vicinity, which at least some of the family of the other victims did, if anyone's family needed protecting, it was the family of the other victims.

[lynn cates]

Hubert

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Any indication that Hubert was EVER John?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks. That helps.

So, where does that leave us? "MJK" took over Brymbo's bio and passed herself under that name. Let's accept that for a moment. After all, the story coincides with respect to geography and siblings.

I can also accept minor deletions and embellishments.

But one problem seems to occur--why not call your "father" "Hubert" and not "John"?

Cheers.
LC

The answer may be apparent if we locate her.
I wonder if the cousin was a daughter of Hubert's brother, was he named John?
That would make the cousin a true 'Kelly' - assuming MJK was this cousin, if not then I don't know.
Maybe Hubert just preferred to be known as John in Wales, part of the new life, new start, scenario. He did sign Mary Ann's marriage certificate as Hubert, this being his legal name.

Small details that appear inconsistent in the face of so many coincidences might explain themselves if she is ever located.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

3 points

Hello Richard.

"It is not inconceivable that her real name was known to the police . . ."

Agreed.

" . . . it is entirely possible that her real identity was protected . . ."

I daresay.

". . . to give her family dignity."

Perhaps not.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
If we take McCarthy's actual statement to the Times November 10 as factual, and not muddled by a reporter, then we have the following.
She came to live with a man called Kelly, a coal porter, and posed as his wife,
We then can interpret that Barnett used an alias[ which one can assume remained until Mary's death]
The first point to raise..
Was Kelly ever a coal porter, lets face it McCarthy could hardly fail to notice such a occupation.
Also why would he use the name Kelly when moving in to that room, I should add also, that she [ Mary] came to live with him, making Joe the initial person paying the rent.
I must ask the question was Mary ever a Kelly by birth , was it invented by Barnett as a alias, and she became known as Mary Kelly, and being a common law marriage, upon her death he registered her under One Marie Jeanette Kelly, using her formal married name Davis as a.k.a?
It is not inconceivable that her real name was known to the police, with sources Barnett, and McCarthy[ the latter via letters from her family] and it is entirely possible that her real identity was protected, to give her family dignity, and the reason we cannot trace her brother is because of the alias Kelly. his real name being John?.........
We have being using Mary Kelly, instead of Mary ?........
Just a Xmas thought.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

Hubert

Hello Jon. Thanks. That helps.

So, where does that leave us? "MJK" took over Brymbo's bio and passed herself under that name. Let's accept that for a moment. After all, the story coincides with respect to geography and siblings.

I can also accept minor deletions and embellishments.

But one problem seems to occur--why not call your "father" "Hubert" and not "John"?

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

RivkahChaya,

I also think the sightings are also estimates, including Bowyer's reported sighting of the body for the first time

You can push Bowyer's sighting back a bit (which I don't think would aid your theory), but you really can't advance it by more a minute or two as the police were first mobilized shortly after 11 am.

Don.

[Wickerman]

This is my favorite answer. I think the TOD is wrong,

Hmm, but its the measure of the error thats the problem. A professional like Bond might make an error of an hour, or two? - but I think you are suggesting an error of about 8 hours?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks. Having a spot of difficulty.

You are saying that "MJK" knew Brymbo Mary and took over her bio? OK. Why?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

I'm saying MJK and Brymbo Mary were two different people.
MJK must have known Brymbo Mary's family in Wales.

We can't possibly know why MJK chose Brymbo Mary's bio, any more than we can know why she simply did not use her own.

Doesn't it suggest to you that this girl, finding herself now in London, felt the need to change her identity?
Why risk a made up identity if she can use one she knows is real. A smart person will know, a liar needs to have a good memory, so tell the truth. MJK's "truth" was to repeat the bio of a past friend/acquaintance/relative - a person she knew.

How much embellishment MJK threw in for good measure is anybody's guess, but if those 'embellishments' actually happened to herself as MJK (not Brymbo Mary), then she is still telling the truth.

Its another way of looking at the mean evidence we have.

[RivkahChaya]

Extremely unlikely she was divorced. Divorce was for the toffs.

True, but discovering that one's wife had run off to be a French prostitute is a bit extreme, and maybe someone might decide that toff or not, a divorce was in order. Heck, that might even be grounds for an annulment. Any Catholics want to weigh in?

Isn't the more credible alternative version that Bond was wrong in his estimation of the time of death? It was, at best, an approximation. That seems (to me anyway) more likely than the substitute body scenario.

This is my favorite answer. I think the TOD is wrong, and I also think the sightings are also estimates, including Bowyer's reported sighting of the body for the first time, so the window for the time between Maxwell seeing Kelly, and Bowyer finding the body may be wider than it looks if we take the reported times as exact.

We don't know just how hot the fire got, but we do know that heat speeds up rigor, so that it is possible the body was kept very warm, even at or above normal body temperature for a while, instead of beginning to drop slowly right at the onset of death. Then, as the fire died down, the body cooled, and because of the viscera being gone, it may have cooled very quickly, so that it was cooler than an intact body would be after the same amount of time.

Also, while pathologists knew about rigor, they did not apparently know the case of it. I haven't been able to find out exactly what would happen to denuded limbs, but they probably wouldn't behave exactly the way one might expect, because rigor is a muscle phenomenon, not ligament or tendon. In other words, the legs and torso might be "loose" when the body was moved, not because of lack of rigor, but because the muscle tissue had been removed.

There's really no telling how much time JTR would have needed to do what he did to the body, but the assumption that hours were required is probably wrong. Experienced butchers can take apart a cow in minutes; now, probably butchering MJK took more than "minutes," but it probably didn't take hours, either.

[lynn cates]

difficulty

Hello Jon. Thanks. Having a spot of difficulty.

You are saying that "MJK" knew Brymbo Mary and took over her bio? OK. Why?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I'm going to repeat a question I've asked before, because I've never gotten an answer, and I don't know if it's gotten swallowed up with multiple posts, or it's just that no one knows the answer.

It just got swallowed up again. I did see it, then I lost it.

It it typical, or even customary among some circles, for a very young widow to go back to using her family name? If the marriage was very brief, and there were no children? If she moved back with her family?

I would take that as not normal. The female would keep the name of her deceased spouse, but if someone knows for certain I'm sure they will enlighten us.

Other than simply not wanting to be thought of as a widow, why would Kelly want to resume her maiden name? Since she didn't seem to mind telling the story of he husband, I don't think not wanting to be a widow was the reason.

It strikes me as the kind of mistake a 'poser' might make. We do not know the context where MJK claimed to be a widow, I wouldn't put much stock in the claim. Chris has looked thoroughly enough for a recently married but suddenly deceased Davis/Davies who worked as a miner, with no success.
Lets just allow for the possibility the story is an embellishment for now.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello (again) Jon. Try here--posts #78 & 79.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=240063&highlight=brymbo#post240063

Cheers.
LC

I don't think you are following me Lynn...

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. You forced me to trot out Chris's book and I found the person to whom you were alluding.

There are indeed some fits, but the father seems to be dead and misnamed. And there is no marriage to Davies. Are you comfortable overlooking those items?

Cheers.
LC

Yes absolutely because the father of Brymbo-mary died while MJK was in London. So clearly this 'father' (who showed up at Pennington St.) was not Brymbo-mary's father, but MJK's father.
Who was MJK?

The marriage to a Davis, the stay in hospital, the trip to France may all be embellishments. We can only stick with what we know.
(Unless it was MJK who married a "Davies/Davis"?).

Lets face it, anyone who knew Brymbo-mary while growing up could have used her identity, a neighbour, a school friend, or even another relative.
The one who we are told led MJK astray (MJK blamed her for her descent into the low-life), was the cousin from Cardiff.
What happened to this cousin?

MJK made the most unbelievably accurate false bio or, she used one that already existed.
You pays your money and you takes your choice...

Regards, Jon S.