The fire in the grate...

[Tom_Wescott]

TJI,

My good friend, you did not enter my mind when I wrote that statement. You listed all the reasons you think Liz was not a Ripper victim. 90% of those reasons were based on misinformation, old myths, or a misunderstanding of the facts. I stronly believe that when you know all the facts you will change your mind. Others, such as Glenn and Perry, know the facts but choose to ignore them for whatever reason. That is their choice, of course, but it can become frustrating when they choose to dominate entire threads.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Tom

Okay no probs.

tj

[paul emmett]

Whilst I'm sure Abberline deserves plaudits in many areas, I'm not sure where, in his career as a watch-maker then policeman, he'd have needed to have learned Newton's Law of Cooling,

Hi, Sam.

From what I hear Newton's law weren't rocket science, and although it is no longer used--I would imagine that it isn't used because of some of the variables Michael touched on that the "law" couldn't take into account--in 1888 it was SOP when there was a question of fire intensity.

Light, Michael? I don't think so--not from damp clothes. I think that, as has already been noted, you'd get more smoke than light. And that in turn is one more reason why I feel that Abberline, or an associate, did apply Newton's Law. Indeed, I think that the fire actually wasn't hot, and that Newton and the belief that the fire was earlier than it actually was caused Abberline to miscalculate the temperature of the fire.

[bolo]

Just wanted to add some kettle and solder-related stuff to this thread -

I guess Mary used wood for the fire, coal or coke must have been too expensive for her and probably was useless for her open fireplace anyway.

The normal flame temperature of a wood fire (like a campfire) is about 600C - 700C (1100F - 1300F), which is not far away from or even coincides with the melting point of the sprout's tin/lead solder spots, depending on the type of solder. Cheaper kettles contained more lead than tin which has a lower melting point.

IMHO, it took less than an hour for the solder to melt if the kettle was empty and the fire on the peak of its temperature. This is based on the assumption that the kettle hung about 0.5m (1.6 feet) over the tips of the flames.

This leads me to believe that the fire must have been quite large and kept like that at least for an hour or two, so I definitely agree with Abberline here.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Paul,

Hi, Sam.

From what I hear Newton's law weren't rocket science...

Indeed, Newton's Law of Cooling certainly isn't rocket science, but there's no reason to suppose that Abberline had even heard of it, let alone used it. It's not as if he needed to be in any way precise about the temperature of the fire - Abberline observed that the spout had been melted off. That fact alone would be strong evidence to suggest a hot fire, without him getting out an abacus ("Abbocus"?) or slide-rule.

[paul emmett]

This leads me to believe that the fire must have been quite large and kept like that at least for an hour or two, so I definitely agree with Abberline here.

Hi, bolo.

When? How? We don't know anything about wood or coal being burned. All we know is that there were clothes burned. And MJK couldn't have been burning clothes, so it must have been the killer. And Cox(nor Hut) didn't see light in the room, so it must have been started after 3:00. And the larger and longer the fire, the smaller the time frame.

And then there's "why?"

Sam, the police had to know Newton's Law: it was neither rocket science nor closeted.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'll have you know that the men of H Division were well-versed in rocket science, thank you very much. You think Edmund Reid flew balloons just to feel the wind in his hair? No, he was testing theories. Always testing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, the police had to know Newton's Law: it was neither rocket science nor closeted.

Sorry, Paul, but frankly your take on the knowledge required by Victorian policemen is way out of proportion. My dad and two uncles were serving 20th Century police officers with a combined service of more than 90 years - one was a constable, one an Inspector in the CID and the other a Chief Superintendent. While they were - and are - intelligent men, the only Law they needed to know was Her Majesty's Law of the Land. Physics and thermodynamics just don't enter into it.

[Tom_Wescott]

They evidently didn't serve with H Division, then.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Since no-one but Tom used the word "idiots" when making his point, it would seem no police were referred to in that way. Sam...thanks for pointing out that Abberline had no way of knowing how hot or bright the fire was while the killer worked.

Paul...there is no record of any wet clothes in that room that night, so if you like the large fire idea yourself, perhaps factor in dry clothing.

On Liz Stride, it is always funny seeing support for her removal being described as some sort of "fringe" effort, like she's a perfect match for a Ripper victim and should obviously be included. Which is of course ludicrous, she has none of the usual "Ripper" wounds and by the medical opinion, it was a single throat cut no later than 12:56am, which effectively tosses the weak interruption premise, in and of itself.

I suppose some students must just like the notion of the fictional super scary guy with no skill and a fixed victims list, Mr Smoke and Mirrors....and the great thing is that they dont require anything in the form of evidence to support that position...just Bond and Macnaughten's and others guesses are good enough for them.

Since neither of those men solved any one of the murders we're talking about, and have no idea who did them, thats a leap of faith I see no reason to take.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

It is a fringe effort, Perry. Consider the people I debate this with on a daily basis:

Glenn Andersson
Fisherman
AP Wolf
You

Doesn't get much fringer than that, partner.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

And Im sure you do believe that of everyone here, only us 4 question some "accepted" beliefs about the cases.

Since you put me in with 2 authors of Ripper books, a historian of crime, and a very interested researcher, all who are interested in trying to find the truth... rather than just following like sheep the a** in front,.. Ill live with that though.

I wish you could see how often your position of "correctness" makes me smile....its a little like the younger kid hanging with the older kids chiming in when they give an opinion on something....like frogs make great pets...and you wanting to be a part of their world saying....yeah, thats what I think too.

Its ok to have your own opinion Tom, as a matter of fact, Im sure its preferable to some of the many unproven ones that you support so vehemently.

And as far as AP goes...you would be doing well if you had a fraction of his talent as a writer.

Cheers.

[Doctor X]

Seems to me a cut throat rather fits with Jack, though that topic--whether or not Stride is or is not a Ripper victim--will go around in circles I am sure.

--J.D.

[perrymason]

Seems to me a cut throat rather fits with Jack, though that topic--whether or not Stride is or is not a Ripper victim--will go around in circles I am sure.

--J.D.

One that is far less severe than all priors, with zero accompanying wounds.

I think if people would abandon the idea that these cases were "solved" by comments from Bond and Macnaughten, we would be talking about these cases for what they actually are,.. unattributed forensically, physically, and individually unsolved.

Some have even moved on from assuming he killed those 5 to now feeling they can use the kill details as the "evidence" to try and psychologically profile the killer.

Talk about the cart before the horse.

Cheers Doc.

[Doctor X]

One that is far less severe than all priors, with zero accompanying wounds.

Not really, but explicable by his "murderus interuptus."

I think if people would abandon the idea that these cases were "solved" by comments from Bond and Macnaughten, we would be talking about these cases for what they actually are,.. unattributed forensically, physically, and individually unsolved.

Frankly, I do not think most care what Bond and Macnaughten stated since most know they did not "solve" the case.

As for the rest, certainly people pile on "reasonable assumptions" to arrive at conclusions.

Notice, I am not stating you are wrong by some fiat: you may be correct about Stride. I am not convinced she is not a victim, but I do not hold it as some dogma either.

--J.D.