The fire in the grate...

[Suzi]

Hi BK
I really dont see Mary doing a great deal of washing at all...well apart from the bright shining apron......which was probably farmed off to Maria/Julia or one of the many visiting 'laundresses' who floated in and out of Room 13.
Suz x

[Suzi]

Depends how fast he worked, if she died at 4 he had at least a couple of hours. No rush in those circumstances, he might have savoured it

As a confirmed Maxwellite I would say about 50 minutes at the top end......20 at the bottom end-then a mix with the general grubby populace and away! (With the 'key' securely pocketed maybe!)
Seriously on that one.....different thread,but relevantish.....I imagine that was for the padlock apres 'discovery')

[Vigilantee]

Anyone :

I know this has been asked before, and regardless of when the murder took place, how long in your opinions do you think it took Jack to commit this murder( if indeed it was our jack) AND do you really think he would have needed that much light? My opinion? I don't think it would have taken him more than 45 minutes to an hour. That might be pushing it a little.

Depends how fast he worked, if she died at 4 he had at least a couple of hours. No rush in those circumstances, he might have savoured it

[Blackkat]

Paul, Sam,

Thank you for the insight on the clothes, that does help quite a bit.

Jane,
I too agree with you. Can't see MJ doing a whole wash in that room.


Anyone :

I know this has been asked before, and regardless of when the murder took place, how long in your opinions do you think it took Jack to commit this murder( if indeed it was our jack) AND do you really think he would have needed that much light? My opinion? I don't think it would have taken him more than 45 minutes to an hour. That might be pushing it a little.

Lastly,

Are there any descriptions of the women that were around MJ? Physical descriptions? Maria etc.

[Suzi]

Hi Janey-----

----Ooooooh The joys of the Launderette 'eh! many a wayward Saturday afternoon spent in there back and fore to the pub between wash and the tumbler! ....Seriously though I reckon the communal wash-ups may have been the cheapest place to meet and have a good old yarn etc etc.......Do you really reckon our Mary thought OMG it's sheet day!!!! Heeeeeeeee ....Bet she didn't put the 'chemise' in for good measure though!!! Hmmmmmmm...waste of a sheet day!!!

Anyway where were we?? Hearths and fires?... and DEFO not for heating anything useful!!!!!!!!!!!! well apart from a cuppa's worth!.... lol

Hugs

Suz xxxxxx

[Suzi]

So ......If Mary with her friends/laundresses various was happy with that and they came and went/stayed on a fairly regular basis that could go a long way to explaining the piles of clothes various and even the 'things' found in the ashes of the fire!

[Jane Coram]

Hi Suzi,

I reckon you are probably right about Mary taking the bath out to the pump to do her smalls, because I'm sure she would have done some washing in it.....It would have been much easier than carting water in and out or carrying a bathful of water back and forth. Bloody cold in winter though! Your other suggestions about going to the local public baths to do it is probably spot on as well. They almost all had laundry rooms attached, where you could do your washing for almost nothing, and at least you got hot water and no chilblains!

If not, I think that Mary could have used something called a 'bag wash' for large items like her sheets. (Although probably not often. Lol.) They were still going in the 1960's in the East End, until the launderettes made their appearance. I used to take the bagwash in an old pram to a shed in the next road once a week. Reckon the old girl that ran it had been there since 1888 - she was about a hundred. Lol.

The customer would put whatever they wanted washed into a pillow case or cloth bag and take it to the laundress who usually worked from a shed or back room. They would be given a ticket and then go and collect it later washed and dried a few days later. It literally only cost pennies, and more or less anyone could afford it at least now and then.

Anyway, back to Mary's fire, to get back on topic, definitely not for heating large quantities of water on!

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[Suzi]

Hi Michael-
Now the idea of Mary washing in in room is unlikely...I imagine she tottered out with the bath/tub/ under the bed thing and a) either filled it and scrubbed her own bits and pieces....[specialising of course on her pinny!!!] in the Court.... or b) had a stand up wash or whatever inside the room ....with the dodgy window covering! and the equally dodgy front door!!!!!!.... Or went somewhere to a local washing house for to do some washing and some serious gossip! More likely I reckon!!

Suz x

[Suzi]

Now- if the kettle was made of copper and placed however on the stand/fire then copper being a great conductor (!) of heat would have allowed the weaker solder to melt and therefore the spout drop off........incidently was the spout ever found?? Presumably it was.......!!

Good evidence of the weaker solder.......... and also to be honest where would Mary have got a top class kettle from in the first place.......Come with me and I'll give you a kettle!........unlikely............probably provided by Mc Carthy I guess

Suz x

I couldnt hate you for just bringing in some relevant history Jane, partially cause your one of my favs here.

I had a school chum whose hand was caught in an automated wringer, and he had to have half his butt skin transplanted to his arm after....nuff said.

Couple of things.....I never claimed the kettle was over the fire, I suggested it may have been used, if the spout already shaky or off, to bring in water from the pump. I always assumed that a swing arm cast iron pot would be in that room. One you just swing in over the flame, and swing back out to serve from.

I am not disputing your recollections Janie...but....Ive seen shots of other courtyards just like Marys, of the period, and they had washing lines strung back and forth across it. And we know that in Marys room were clothes and remnants that did not belong to Mary or Maria...but a client of Maria's. We also know that Maria and Mary spent the entire afternoon together. We also know that Maria has her own room to leave these things in, not far away, and if she is out of that room with them, it means she is either taking them to get done, or was taking them home after washing them.

Neither explains the two together all afternoon, Maria giving Mary some coins, and the fact that the laundry... that is taken in contract wash by Maria,... is in Marys room.

Ive known starving actors that washed unmentionables in a kitchen sink, or in their bathtub...and I know that when your means are few, your ability to deal with problems that you will have....one being dirty clothing...you either figure a way round your obstacles, or you wear dirty smelly clothing a lot.

Dew said when he saw Mary she invariably had on one of her fresh white aprons....and her hair loose, meaning very likely frequently washed. Clothes and hair can be washed in cold water if thats all you got. Likely at the same time, not even having enough rent money,...let alone money to wash clothing.

Best regards Janie...all.

[Suzi]

Yeah, like I said. No one's gonna be washing clothes in water boiled in a grate like that. That is for making tea and toasting bread and maybe face-washing water if you're pernickety about looking clean!

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooops sorry just picked up at home!!!! Shut up Suzi!!! Great Grates though!.. They're a page or two back!!!.. OK right those little grates werent a lot of good for anything except boiling a kettle on- with the cunning attachment or maybe.................oddly drying clothes on a rack or horse of some kind.....even a chair.....ODD THAT THE FOLDED (!) CLOTHES WERE ON THE SIDE.....MAYBE THEY WERE DRY when folded....by whoever!!!! (sorry about the caps there was off on one and didn't notice!!!)
Anyway those little kettle things were very effective............ unless the kettle was put on the wrong way round!!!!!!!!!!!

Spouting here!!!
Suz x

[Suzi]

Dammit theyre on my work machine too!!!

[Suzi]

grrrrrrrrrrrrr Can't get Youtube on whatever I try!!! Oh well my Granny mangled my grandad on a regular basis to the extent he sailed with the White Star line and Ooops missed the Titanic......VERRY unpopular for a few days in St Denys and then Uh Oh

Where're my great grate pics gone????

[Supe]

Janie,

Great post, great! And thanks for bringing back some dim memories of my great-grandmother working away with her solid iron iron heated on the coal range. And all the while she would be singing away in her thick Scots "Doric" burr. There were eight rooms in the house, but only two were heated: The kitchen with the coal range and the living room where the fireplace had been fitted with a "Baltimore heater." The latter was a semi-circular cast-ron contraption with glass windows that allowed you to safely burn coal. Of course, as was the custom for literally ages, of an evening everyone gathered in the kitchen to talk and stay warm (or at least warmish). And--culture shock anyone--they even had the television in the kitchen.

And the picture of the mangle even conjures up better memories of the several timers ice storms kept us without power for more than a week at a time. In the basement of my mom's Victorian house was a lovely old soapstone sink complete with wringer (mangle) that were all put to use. And for those unfamiliar with the item, the old phrase "get your [choose the bodily part] caught in a wringer" should take on new and painful images.

Anyway, as Jane clearly pointed out, the notion that Mary and Maria spent any time washing clothes in her room and morever using the poor little tea kettle is nonsense. Further, as Jane pointed out, the term "laundress" had more than its literal meaning in the area.

Masterly job of exposition Jane.

Don.

[Sam Flynn]

now up for sale I imagine the top one was the sort of thing that Mary had with maybe (posh) a kettle attachment on the front of the grate......my Gran had one of those

...my grandmother had one too... it was my grandfather!

Ref - http://youtube.com/watch?v=VSSGiA4f5cs