The fire in the grate...

[Cap'n Jack]

'This is a fact. I've said before and will again that AP Wolf is the most talented writer on these boards. His book is one of the easiest and most enjoyable reads in the field. I'd kill for his talent! '

I'm going to French-kiss you all over for that, Tom.

[Tom_Wescott]

No problem, AP. And just so everyone knows, those were sincere sentiments on my part, not one of my smartass responses. Anyone who has read the online or print editions of his book knows what I'm talking about.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

I think it is significant that none of the witnesses who made statements with regard to Kelly's comings and goings or lack thereof ever stated that they made an observation of her room for some specific purpose such as "I wanted to see if she was in her room so that I could borrow some tea" or "I was feeling lonely and wanted to chat if she was up." As you pointed out, it would appear to be only peripheral glances as they had other things on their mind.

c.d.

[c.d.]

'This is a fact. I've said before and will again that AP Wolf is the most talented writer on these boards. His book is one of the easiest and most enjoyable reads in the field. I'd kill for his talent! '

I'm going to French-kiss you all over for that, Tom.

Now that is one bad image.

c.d.

[Chris Scott]

Kevin
Re: your post #53 and the appearance of Kelly's fireplace
Below is the Reynold's News sketch of the room from November 1888
Chris

[perrymason]

Tom the comment about AP's talent was because I needed to know that you knew you werent superior in all ways to the rest of us. You did good,...and you let a little of the less arrogant and infinitely more agreeable TW out. And Im 50 next week...so your still a kid to me.

As for the fire, or the lack of one, what is put on the fire to burn is what determines how much light is given off. It is an error to suggest all materials burn the same length or at the same temperature, which usually corresponds to the brightness it gives off....and there were fabric remnants in the fire. Anyone who has made a hearth fire themselves, and thrown anything made of fabric on, if the fire is hot, it will catch and burn completely to ash. Some fabrics dont catch fire easily, or stay alit....but all will burn to ash with time, over a slow steady fire.

It seems Mary Jane would only be able to afford the most inexpensive means of fuel, and some last year suggested dried dung as a possibility,....something that would produce some heat, but little light.

From 1:30am until 3am there is no way a large fire would be unnoticed by any of the 3 women who testify as to their experiences in the court that night. Whether they looked specifically or not....at least 3 passes from Mary Ann, One from Sarah, and Elizabeth starts the "dark and quiet" clock running. Mary Janes curtains were muslin....semi transparent, and again, since no-one seems to get this significance, Marys windows faced a white wall two stories high.

At least until around 3am, there was no large fire at all.

Im wondering how the people who still believe Hutchinson's suspect story explain his being with Mary in her room in the dark when Mary Ann comes in at 3.

Best regards.

[bolo]

Whenever you put it, the fire must have been very important to the killer.

Gee, I should have stuck to the "fire in the grate"-line of events with my previous posts and not drag Blotchy, Hutch and Mary in there....

Anyway, I agree with you. Taking a closer look at the fire in the grate and the molten kettle sprout could be helpful in the end to get an idea about the line of events that night, that's why I'm still trying to find out more details about it, difficult as it may be. At the moment I'm thinking about a new practical experiment but I'm quite sure that it's near impossible to find a simple LVP water kettle for a reasonable price... of course it's possible that I'm chasing yet another phantom here, the sprout may have come off a few days before already, or Mary burned old and torn pieces of clothing herself, was too lazy to clean the fireplace and simply lit another fire on top of it, etc.pp...

But hey, aren't we all phantom chasers in one way or another?

There, a gull!!!

* runs away

[Sam Flynn]

From 1:30am until 3am there is no way a large fire would be unnoticed by any of the 3 women who testify as to their experiences in the court that night.

Disagree. Fundamentally. For reasons given above.

Mike - please think.

[perrymason]

I can assure you Sam that I am doing just that. The fire may have been untended to since slightly before 1:30am, and perhaps was a low hot fire anyway since she hadnt tended it for quite some time if out until 11:45pm,...and the fact that neither of the women that pass right by her door after that notice any reflected light on the white wall opposite her window covered by something akin to cheesecloth...can be used to substantiate that.

This is not about Mary Jane going out Sam, but if she did, thats also why no-one noticed any light, she wasnt there. The alternative is that she didn't leave, and went to sleep.

Im not sure to what point Bolo was making you wanted me to address, but Im fairly sure that Mary didnt burn her own clothing to sustain a fire...the little she now owned, and Im also fairly sure a hat and skirt thrown on a low fire would create little more than smoke and some heat. Not the best combination in a 10 X10.

Nor do I think she burned the hat and skirt anyway, its quite possible she helped Maria wash that skirt earlier in the day. The fire was likely low and hot all day to keeping boiling water for washing, if thats how they spent all afternoon together.

With only the last pass of Mary Ann Cox we can say there was no bright fire going on at 3am. And Sarah didnt see one around 2am. I know this is heading down one of your premise type roads,...such as, the fire could have been re-started and then died down during that hour.However, without any evidence that there was a fire that anyone would or did notice from the time she came home until 3am, it would seem if at all, it was rekindled with hat and skirt after that time. Maybe around 4-4:30 would be my guess.

Best regards Sam.

[Natalie Severn]

Now that is one bad image.

c.d.

.......but at least it makes a change from them punching each other on the nose eh!

[bolo]

Bolo,

Again, coal cannot be used in an open fireplace like the one in Mary's little room

While I doubt it has bearing on the fire in Mary's room, for the record there is "cannel coal," a bituminous coal that can (and is) burned in open grates and fireplaces. I know because I've done it many times.

Don.

Somehow I've missed your reply, sorry for that.

I've read up on cannel coal, apparently it's a special type of coal with an excess amount of hydrogen that burns with a bright light and leaves little ash behind.

According to some bits of info I've found in the "Virtual Encyclopaedia of Greater Manchester in the Third Millennium", cannel coal was mainly used for lighting:

http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/celebs/engineers3.html

(Scroll down to the paragraph on Sir Roger Bradshaigh).

Quote:

"The material was smooth, hard, and could be worked and carved, by hand or turned on a lathe, and made into ornaments. Its development as a material came into its own in the early 19th Century, where its high illuminating power was ideal for the crude domestic burners of the day, before the incandescent gas mantle was available. [...] It was widely used for domestic lighting throughout the region and gradually lost favour as the increasingly widespread use of coal gas made it obsolete.".

In short, I don't think Mary used cannel coal in her fireplace but stuck to wood, paper and ... clothing?

/grate nerd mode

[Supe]

Bolo,

In the opening sentence of the post I made it clear I doubted cannel coal had anything to do with the situation in Kelly's room. Simply a pedantic point keyed by the fact that I have used the product at various times in an open fireplace.

Whether Kelly's was an open fireplace, fuelled only by wood remains an interesting question. Certainly, burning coal was a key element of the "peasouper" fogs that plagued London and was the fuel of choice at the time.

Don.

[CitizenX]

What i always find strange is Maria Harvey never says why she left the clothes with Mary. She had her own place in New Court so could easily have took them there.

What if the clothes were burnt by somebody in an argument long before Mary was murdered. It's very strange that although jack is supposed to have burnt the clothes for light or whatever reason, he leaves Marys clothes neatly folded on a chair at the end of the bed......

Also Abberline says "a large amount of womens clothing was burnt in the grate" why say that when the clothes left by Harvey were primariliy mens clothes....

In domestic arguments it's quite often that the couple destroy each others clothes...maybe thats why the only unburnt clothes in the room were the ones worn by Mary..

Kevin

[perrymason]

Its an interesting question Kevin. The items that were identifiable were not wood, or paper, and they would burn without producing much light..but there would be smoke. Were her windows locked when she came home,...or did the killer open one or both, and after shutting them before leaving, lock them.

Did the killer burn them? I think yes
Did he think he was burning Marys clothing? Key question.
Aside from the clothes Mary wore that night, what else did she own, and keep in that room? Dont know.
Did the killer burn them to cover up burning something else first? In other words, were they added to create heat to burn something else? Possible
Was there ever a bright fire that night? Not one that was noticeable.

I think on Maria, she might have felt Marys room safer for the clothes than her new digs, and they had spent the entire afternoon together in her room, which had a water pump just outside, and those kinds of courts had washing lines strung all around them. I think they were there because Mary and her washed them. Maria did give Mary Jane money that day.

Cheers.

[jerryd]

What i always find strange is Maria Harvey never says why she left the clothes with Mary. She had her own place in New Court so could easily have took them there.

There was one article of clothing that Maria left with Mary that didn't get burned, a black overcoat. It ended up in a "room in the court". Maria saw this black overcoat after the murder of Mary.

Why did the overcoat disappear from Mary's room and the other articles Maria left didn't?

jerryd