Limerick, the Key?

[Debra A]

Are folks aware of this?

http://registers.nli.ie/

It's a bit of a Marathon!

Excellent Robert. Thanks!

[Robert]

Are folks aware of this?

http://registers.nli.ie/

It's a bit of a Marathon!

[Debra A]

Have you also checked out John Kelly and Mary McCann?

No. If it's an Irish birth record then it's difficult because there are no Irish census records to cross reference anything. There are also quite a few women who might fit if we go outside Limerick.

Here's one that has a coincidental familiarity about it:

Name MARY JANE KELLY
Date of Birth 1 August 1859
Address 15 DORSET ST
Father JOHN KELLY
Mother CATHERINE MURRAY

Sponsor 2 ELIZA COOPER

[SuspectZero]

IIRC the address on the marriage certificate confirmed it was the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones. Her father Hubert Thomas was dead by then and is named as Hubert Kelly, deceased. The certificate is not available online. Perhaps Wickerman will remember as he also saw the certificate and was satisfied it was the same woman...and he's a hard man to please.

Have you also checked out John Kelly and Mary McCann?

[Debra A]

Yes it is but I'm not convinced that this is the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones.
I read the past threads and I'm not convinced yet. In my research I have come across several Hubert Kelly's married to a Bridget with a daughter named Mary.
I'm a dogged researcher and this is the strongest candidate I've ever run across, so I'm still researching.

IIRC the address on the marriage certificate confirmed it was the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones. Her father Hubert Thomas was dead by then and is named as Hubert Kelly, deceased. The certificate is not available online. Perhaps Wickerman will remember as he also saw the certificate and was satisfied it was the same woman...and he's a hard man to please.

[SuspectZero]

If it's Hubert and Bridget's daughter you are talking about, SZ, then this Mary Ann Kelly has definitely been eliminated. She married Griffith Jones and became a pub landlady:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6587

If not, apologies and carry on..

Yes it is but I'm not convinced that this is the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones.
I read the past threads and I'm not convinced yet. In my research I have come across several Hubert Kelly's married to a Bridget with a daughter named Mary.
I'm a dogged researcher and this is the strongest candidate I've ever run across, so I'm still researching.

[Wickerman]

This sounds interesting. The fact that you can't find a Mary who fits all the info (which wasn't much!) she gave about her past doesn't surprise me, for whatever reason(s) she was a pretty prolific liar.

In pursing the life of a prostitute, you are often fulfilling someone else's fantasy. It shouldn't be surprising that some of them invent a more interesting past for themselves. Stride did the same if you recall.

[Debra A]

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

If it's Hubert and Bridget's daughter you are talking about, SZ, then this Mary Ann Kelly has definitely been eliminated. She married Griffith Jones and became a pub landlady:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6587

If not, apologies and carry on..

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

This sounds interesting. The fact that you can't find a Mary who fits all the info (which wasn't much!) she gave about her past doesn't surprise me, for whatever reason(s) she was a pretty prolific liar. But that doesn't mean everything she said was untrue. The story she gave out probably was a confusing mix of fact and fiction. (It's certainly confused me! )

It's possible the "Davies" who lived next door in Wales never actually married her, it may have been a common-law marriage, which would explain the lack of any marriage records.

A lot of the rest does seem to fit. The birthdate, the names, the 7 brothers and 1 sister, the collier named Davies who lived right next door--seems to me that's a lot more like the Mary Kelly of Miller's Court than many others who have been proposed as "the" Mary.

Do you have any more information about this Mary, or even the collier Davies? You never know what you might turn up!

[SuspectZero]

Could this be our Mary?

So I cannot find a Mary that fits everything she has told various people but I did find a Mary that meets many of the criteria and happened to live next door to a collier named Davies. The family was born in Ireland, as was this Mary. She was born in 1864. She had 7 brothers (one was named John) and 1 sister (Elizabeth). They lived in Wales and Mary was there in 1881 but gone in 1901.

[Debra A]

This parentage where the mother's names is McCarthy was first located a good 10-15 years ago, interest in this seemed to die off for some reason. Debs would likely remember why, but if not then I too am happy it has sprung legs again.

Yes, Jon, wasn't it Sue and Andy Parlour who first mentioned that particular Mary Jane Kelly in their book in the 90's?
I don't recall any conclusion ever being reached about her. The lack of census records in Ireland meant she, like many other possibles, was almost impossible to follow up on I would think?
There's also the fact that civil registration didn't begin in Ireland until 1864 so there may be many more Limerick born Marys who we don't know about through the civil registration index because they were born before that year. I wouldn't rule out MJK being born as far back the late 1850's myself.

[SuspectZero]

I also ran across a Mary that piqued my interest. She was in London in the 1881 census and she was listed as a niece of the head of household but who had a different name. The rest listed were men and were boarders. She was listed as a house servant.

[SuspectZero]

I am glad to see people running with this. A few pointers, that may help, Mary Kelly daughter of John Kelly and Anne McCarthy had two brothers John born 1866 and Peter born 1868 and a sister.Now the problems are, that all the Marys mentioned have been noted before and they may be useful, but as someone who has checked all the London and Welsh Marys on the census unless there is more than one census entry, say Wales 71, 81 or Wales 71 London 81 or if she was born or came to London consistant London entrys, nothing can be proved. That has ALWAYS been the problem with Marys, a promising lead that turns to nothing.
The prostitute Mary is sadly not the same one. I wish she was.
The methodical way to approach this is to start eliminating Limerick Marys by seeing how many stayed in Ireland and married by checking the marriage records in Limerick. I only have accessed free Familysearch.org which is not comprehensive, there are civil records and parish records. To trace a limerick Mary born 1860/5 from birth to death would be a useful start to elimate, then trace Welsh Marys born in Ireland, how many married? Then Welsh Marys born in Wales[ very few of those] Then Marys born in London.
She did not marry a Davies in Wales between 1875/81 but that does not mean she did not know a Davies, it may have been a neighbour or a friend, a story she appropriated to gain sympathy, there are made up elements to her story but I believe it to be basically true. An Irish girl with a Limerick connection brought up in Wales [ perhaps her parents were born in Limerick and she was born in Wales,[ where hundreds of irishmen emigrated to work in the ironworks or coalmines ] becoming a prostitute in Cardiff[ which had many brothels] moving to london,working in an up market West End brothel, going to France with a gentleman. All these elements are historically plausible. Her father may not have been John. She may not have had a brother in the Scots Guards, it may have been a client when she was up West. Her brother may have been in another regiment if he was a soldier. Was she accurate as to the number of her siblings? She was probably a Catholic as were all the Irish who worked the docks and as was Joe Barnett.
Thinking laterally, reseaching the families of possible leads, If she disappears in the Welsh census after 81 has she married? There are several censuses for Welsh Marys,Homfrey St Cardiff, Mumforth St Flint, Broughton Cottages, Brymbo Denbighshire and others. I have been investigating London prostitution, thats another way in.
Debra has been heroic in her efforts to trace Scots Guards.
Limerick and Welsh newspapers, that's another thing, any family mentioned?
Did she have a relative in Cardiff? what about the Cardiff Brothels? i have seen several newspaper accounts of prosecutions of brothel keepers in Cardiff in the 1880s etc etc.
Of course if she is not called Kelly we are all f****d
Start looking under Davies. Marie is good, she could be a Marie.

Miss Marple

I'll continue to pursue Marie Kelly. I have access to all of Ancestry's databases as well as British Newspapers, if that's any help.

[Wickerman]

This parentage where the mother's names is McCarthy was first located a good 10-15 years ago, interest in this seemed to die off for some reason. Debs would likely remember why, but if not then I too am happy it has sprung legs again.

[miss marple]

I am glad to see people running with this. A few pointers, that may help, Mary Kelly daughter of John Kelly and Anne McCarthy had two brothers John born 1866 and Peter born 1868 and a sister.Now the problems are, that all the Marys mentioned have been noted before and they may be useful, but as someone who has checked all the London and Welsh Marys on the census unless there is more than one census entry, say Wales 71, 81 or Wales 71 London 81 or if she was born or came to London consistant London entrys, nothing can be proved. That has ALWAYS been the problem with Marys, a promising lead that turns to nothing.
The prostitute Mary is sadly not the same one. I wish she was.
The methodical way to approach this is to start eliminating Limerick Marys by seeing how many stayed in Ireland and married by checking the marriage records in Limerick. I only have accessed free Familysearch.org which is not comprehensive, there are civil records and parish records. To trace a limerick Mary born 1860/5 from birth to death would be a useful start to elimate, then trace Welsh Marys born in Ireland, how many married? Then Welsh Marys born in Wales[ very few of those] Then Marys born in London.
She did not marry a Davies in Wales between 1875/81 but that does not mean she did not know a Davies, it may have been a neighbour or a friend, a story she appropriated to gain sympathy, there are made up elements to her story but I believe it to be basically true. An Irish girl with a Limerick connection brought up in Wales [ perhaps her parents were born in Limerick and she was born in Wales,[ where hundreds of irishmen emigrated to work in the ironworks or coalmines ] becoming a prostitute in Cardiff[ which had many brothels] moving to london,working in an up market West End brothel, going to France with a gentleman. All these elements are historically plausible. Her father may not have been John. She may not have had a brother in the Scots Guards, it may have been a client when she was up West. Her brother may have been in another regiment if he was a soldier. Was she accurate as to the number of her siblings? She was probably a Catholic as were all the Irish who worked the docks and as was Joe Barnett.
Thinking laterally, reseaching the families of possible leads, If she disappears in the Welsh census after 81 has she married? There are several censuses for Welsh Marys,Homfrey St Cardiff, Mumforth St Flint, Broughton Cottages, Brymbo Denbighshire and others. I have been investigating London prostitution, thats another way in.
Debra has been heroic in her efforts to trace Scots Guards.
Limerick and Welsh newspapers, that's another thing, any family mentioned?
Did she have a relative in Cardiff? what about the Cardiff Brothels? i have seen several newspaper accounts of prosecutions of brothel keepers in Cardiff in the 1880s etc etc.
Of course if she is not called Kelly we are all f****d
Start looking under Davies. Marie is good, she could be a Marie.

Miss Marple