One Kelly family, in Wales.

[Livia]

Probate: 1883

Hubert Thomas Kelly

Personal Estate £134

October 2. Administration of the Personal Estate of
Hubert Thomas Kelly formerly of Ballinasloe of Galway
County Ireland but late of Southsea in the parish of
Brymbo Denbigh Collier who died 14 August 1883 at
Southsea was granted at St Asaph at Southsea to
Bridget Kelly of Southsea widow the Relict.

[Debra A]

Some 16 miles from Ballinasloe, Galway, is Mountbellow (sometimes Mount Bellow) where a Mary Kelly was born on 15 November 1865 to Hubert Kelly and Bridget (Ruane).

This doesn't appear to be the right family, Paul. Hubert Kelly and Bridget Ruane also had a son named John in 1876 and also children Patrick and Bridget in the 70s.

The Brymbo Mary Kelly has also been identified with the daughter of Hubert Thomas Kelly Sr. (1830 – 1883) and Bridget McClure (1834– ), who married Michael McDermott (1855–1935) in 1891 and emigrated to the United States where she had three children, (Mary, John Joseph, and Annie). I am not sure on what evidence the identification of Mary Kelly/McDermott is made.

Some of the other information on the Ancestry tree stating this is obviously incorrect, John's details for example. 'Our' John born 1857 was married to Mary E by 1891 and was born in Ireland not the US.

[Archaic]

This is going to sound very strange however there is an old lady who lived around the corner from me. She is still alive and probably about 96 now, i believe she is in a home currently.

A few years back i used to watch out for her and look after her garden, or help with a few things around the house. One day i was talking to her about the old days of the village and she got out lots of old photos of days gone by. I said something about loving old photos and spoke about my interest in the victorian times and also mentioned about the whitechapel murders and my fascination. She said something very strange which i have only now just tied in. She said something along the lines of "didnt one of them come from Brymbo?"........I know Brymbo because my mate used to play cricket for colwyn bay and bymbo was a place we used to often go and watch when he played. Being aware at the time of the Irish connection to Kelly and the swedish one to Stride, i didnt actually know which one she was referring to and probably dismissed her statement without actually in any way believing her.
Now this lady has lived in Flintshire all her life, she would have been born in the 1920s. Is it possible that she did know something i didnt or was this postulated long ago and she just took it as fact ( when it possibly wasnt ) ?

That's an interesting story, Jason; thanks for sharing it.

While this particular story might not turn out to be correct, I think it's important for Ripperologists to pay attention to what the "old-timers" said about the murders, and particularly about the victims. You never know when a bit of old oral history will end up being the clue we need to achieve a breakthrough- for example, a clue that might point us toward the true origins of Mary Kelly.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

PS: My thanks again to everybody for their tireless efforts to trace Mary Kelly and her family.

[PaulB]

This doesn't appear to be the right family, Paul. Hubert Kelly and Bridget Ruane also had a son named John in 1876 and also children Patrick and Bridget in the 70s.



Some of the other information on the Ancestry tree stating this is obviously incorrect, John's details for example. 'Our' John born 1857 was married to Mary E by 1891 and was born in Ireland not the US.

I thought the Ancestry tree was way out, but I wasn't sure about the Hubert and Bridget, though I thought they were wrong. So what's the state of play? Have we got any of this family before 1881? Do we have Michael, John, Hubert and Mary after 1881?

[Debra A]

So what's the state of play? Have we got any of this family before 1881? Do we have Michael, John, Hubert and Mary after 1881?

I posted their details from 1871, which shows they came to Wales after 1869/1870 when the last child was born in Ireland to April 1871 when the 1871 census was taken. There is also a daughter Bridget listed in 1871.

We know John married from the 1891 census entry I posted and Chris mentioned .

John after 1881

Here's John's marriage entry:

Name: KELLY, John
Registration district: [?] Wrexham County: Denbighshire
Year of registration: 1891
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Volume no: [?] 11B Page no: [?] 375

CHALONER, May Esther


Mary E/May Esther appears on the 1871 census as Esther, with her parents and siblings including brother Robert Chaloner who is listed as a brother in law, living with John and Mary Kelly in 1891.

It could be that this was John's second wife as they didn't marry until their son Hubert was 5 years old and there is a marriage entry for a John Kelly in 1885 in the same area.

I'll have a look for Hubert b 1861, Mary will be much more difficult to trace.

[Debra A]

I think it's possible that Mary might be the same Mary Ann Kelly that married Griffith Jones in 1886 in Wrexham Denbighshire.
I am basing this solely on the fact that she gives her year of birth as c 1865 in Ireland, she's living in the right area( wrexham) and that in 1901 her youngest son was named Hubert Jones.
Only the marriage certificate would prove it either way though.

[Debra A]

And in 1911 Mary Jones gives her place of birth as Ballanslo!

[Chris Scott]

Some very impressive info in this thread Debs :-)

[Wickerman]

I appreciate the interest you have all shown, and for the contributions Debs, Livia, Paul, Chris, and an interesting tid-bit from Jason.
Thankyou all, this is promising.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

She said something very strange which i have only now just tied in. She said something along the lines of "didnt one of them come from Brymbo?"........

Thankyou Jason, I wonder if it would be worth checking any local papers for Nov-Dec 1888. If anyone believed a local girl was somehow involved in the Whitechapel murders a local paper would surely have made the most of it.

Regards, Jon S.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

This angle has been gone into with a fine tooth comb, but might be useful for those playing catch-up.

Western Mail
12 November 1888

"Our Swansea reporter writes:-

"The very name of Whitechapel is regarded with such general loathing that one might expect it would be cautiously avoided as a topic of conversation. The news, however, of the sixth (or seventh) murder in this vicinity furnished by the papers on Saturday was a subject more freely canvassed than any other at Swansea, and there was, of course, a good deal of speculation as to whether the police would this time be too many for the wily perpetrator. The subject exerted the more interest on it coming to light during the day that the murdered woman Kelly was for some time a resident of Swansea. She was, I am informed, born in a house near the National Schools, Llanelly. She came to Swansea, and entered the service of a Mr and Mrs Rees (the latter being the daughter of the late Dr Hopkins, of Carmarthen, and now awaiting her trial for murder) where she remained for about six months. She afterwards lived at Swansea, and her morals became more questionable every day. She is described as a fine, well built girl.

"Our reporter made inquiries at Cardiff Police station, in order to discover if the unfortunate woman was known to the police. He was informed by Mr Hemingway (the head constable) that he had no recollection of anyone answering the description of the victim, and that so far as he was aware, the woman had not come under the notice of the police."

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Some very impressive info in this thread Debs :-)

Thanks, Chris.
Do you think, like me, that we can probably cross this Mary off the list too now?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Personally, I'd cross any Mary Kelly off the list.

Regards,

Simon

[PaulB]

Thanks, Chris.
Do you think, like me, that we can probably cross this Mary off the list too now?

It is certainly looking that way, Debs. Another one bites the dust, as Queen was wont to say.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Debra,

Personally, I'd cross any Mary Kelly off the list.

Regards,

Simon

I totally agree