One Kelly family, in Wales.

[Debra A]

Debs.
I set my criteria in the absence of anyone coming forward with suggestions.
You do recall basically assessing the problem yourself? To which I responded in this post..

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=217921&postcount=466

I had asked you for "what direction to follow", essentially for your opinion, assuming we throw out most of the details we have inherited.
Obviously some should be kept, like her claiming to be Irish & moving to Wales cannot be easily abandoned. Neither are we at liberty to choose any age for MJK, we are obliged to look for a woman no younger than 20 nor older than 30, so a very broad window for her birth could be 1858-1868.
Seeing as "Limerick" has not offered anything promising (as far as I know) what else do you think relevant?

I couldn't begin to set one,that's why,Wick.
Maybe she grew up competing with 6 sisters and hated it and thought in her next life she might like to have the protection of 6 big brothers instead? Perhaps she had one brother in reality, so he became Henry,the one who stood out, the only one with a name, the soldier?
Is the real truth that all we really know about Barnett's MJK is that she was a woman born c 1864, give or take a few years either way?
I honestly don't know.

[Debra A]

I've dropped David a message to ask.

My thanks too, Paul. I keep missing your posts!

[Wickerman]

I couldn't begin to set one,that's why,Wick.
Maybe she grew up competing with 6 sisters and hated it and thought in her next life she might like to have the protection of 6 big brothers instead? Perhaps she had one brother in reality, so he became Henry,the one who stood out, the only one with a name, the soldier?
Is the real truth that all we really know about Barnett's MJK is that she was a woman born c 1864, give or take a few years either way?
I honestly don't know.

So how could you recognize her?

(thats just a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer)


And as a final comment, if Hubert is described as "deceased", I'm done with this line of enquiry, I promise

All the best, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

So how could you recognize her?

Precisely Jon...and I think this is actually where Debs is coming from...whether we like it or not, an awful lot of research HAS been done, and to no avail...

Chris Scott's been very thorough indeed in researching MJK (I really would recommend his book)...there aren't many avenues left, beyond those requiring some lateral thinking.

Debra is I think the last chance we have...and I believe that she, like me and loads of others, thinks MJK is such a construct of lies as to be almost untraceable...research such as she is undertaking can, after all, prove certain things by being negative as well as positive...yes?

Sorry Debs if I'm mis-stating where you're coming from, but it's the way I read what you say...

Every good wish

Dave

[Wickerman]

Precisely Jon...and I think this is actually where Debs is coming from...whether we like it or not, an awful lot of research HAS been done, and to no avail...

Indeed Dave.
My recollections go back to the days of Mark King & Andy & Sue Parlour, but I've never kept an ongoing 'file' on what has been established or proved wrong.

Chris Scott's been very thorough indeed in researching MJK (I really would recommend his book)...there aren't many avenues left, beyond those requiring some lateral thinking.

Agreed again, but as more records become available the pursuit must also continue. My major concern is always that without some criteria to enable us to distinguish one Mary Kelly from another then the search potentially lacks direction.

If nothing fits, or if we cannot agree on what is deemed viable as criteria then all we are left with is a name, and by itself the name is as good as worthless as it may not even be genuine.

Any criteria we use can distinguish a particular person regardless of the name, but the name cannot function as a distinguishing feature without criteria.
Sadly, most of our search fields are name based.

Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from.
Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from.
Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon

Fear not...I know exactly where you're coming from!

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Precisely Jon...and I think this is actually where Debs is coming from...whether we like it or not, an awful lot of research HAS been done, and to no avail...

Chris Scott's been very thorough indeed in researching MJK (I really would recommend his book)...there aren't many avenues left, beyond those requiring some lateral thinking.

Debra is I think the last chance we have...and I believe that she, like me and loads of others, thinks MJK is such a construct of lies as to be almost untraceable...research such as she is undertaking can, after all, prove certain things by being negative as well as positive...yes?

Sorry Debs if I'm mis-stating where you're coming from, but it's the way I read what you say...

Every good wish

Dave

Thanks, Dave. Spot on!

Here I am looking for Limerick born Scots guards, Welsh born Scots Guards, continuing the research with individual criteria and Wickers is still not bloody satisfied!

[Wickerman]

Here I am looking for Limerick born Scots guards, Welsh born Scots Guards, continuing the research with individual criteria and Wickers is still not bloody satisfied!

Anyone might think you don't feel appreciated, well rest assured my dear your efforts are very much appreciated.

When I get back from the UK I'll be renewing my subscriptions and diving back into this Geneology too, so less questions...


Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Anyone might think you don't feel appreciated, well rest assured my dear your efforts are very much appreciated.

I'm sorry Jon...I've read that...thought about it...shrugged my shoulders...gone away...thought about it some more and come back...Like I say...sorry, and whilst probably you didn't mean it that way, it does sound very patronising or condescending... pat on the head for the clever little girl etc...I'm anxious not to cause offence to anybody on Casebook, but to my ears at least, that's what it sounds like...perhaps I'm being a little oversensitive...

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

I had not seen our 'Brymbo' Mary carrying a middle name, don't we just have Mary Kelly?, neither Ann nor Jane?

In the 1871 census 'Brymbo' Mary is listed as Mary A. Kelly.

Also something not mentioned earlier; in 1871 the parents of the Griffith Jones who married Mary Ann Kelly in 1886 were living in Lodge Brymbo the same as the Kellys.

[RivkahChaya]

Although Barnett does specifically state that "Kelly" was her maiden name, we might seriously need to abandon this line of inquiry.

Regards, Jon S.

I always wondered why she would use her maiden name, if she'd been married and widowed. How common was that? It seems we have divorced women still using their former husband's names, why wouldn't a widow do so?

I'm highly suspicious of "Kelly" being her last name at all, particularly if there was even a small bit of truth to the idea that she'd run away from an employer with whom she had a contract she had not fulfilled.

[Wickerman]

And as a final comment, if Hubert is described as "deceased", I'm done with this line of enquiry, I promise

...and thanks to the kind efforts of both Paul & Debs, I can equivocally "see for myself" that the marriage certificate does describe Hubert as "deceased".

This line of inquiry (sadly) appears to be terminated.
Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

Hi All,

This angle has been gone into with a fine tooth comb, but might be useful for those playing catch-up.

Western Mail
12 November 1888

"Our Swansea reporter writes:-

"The very name of Whitechapel is regarded with such general loathing that one might expect it would be cautiously avoided as a topic of conversation. The news, however, of the sixth (or seventh) murder in this vicinity furnished by the papers on Saturday was a subject more freely canvassed than any other at Swansea, and there was, of course, a good deal of speculation as to whether the police would this time be too many for the wily perpetrator. The subject exerted the more interest on it coming to light during the day that the murdered woman Kelly was for some time a resident of Swansea. She was, I am informed, born in a house near the National Schools, Llanelly. She came to Swansea, and entered the service of a Mr and Mrs Rees (the latter being the daughter of the late Dr Hopkins, of Carmarthen, and now awaiting her trial for murder) where she remained for about six months. She afterwards lived at Swansea, and her morals became more questionable every day. She is described as a fine, well built girl.

"Our reporter made inquiries at Cardiff Police station, in order to discover if the unfortunate woman was known to the police. He was informed by Mr Hemingway (the head constable) that he had no recollection of anyone answering the description of the victim, and that so far as he was aware, the woman had not come under the notice of the police."

Regards,

Simon

The oldest school in Llanelli is claimed to be the Copperworks school, founded in 1847. On 28th June 1876, Mary Jane Kelly (17) daughter of Edward Kelly, a Copperman born in Ireland, married William Morgan in Swansea. She's about 4 years older than MJK was claimed to be. I guess she might be the Swansea Kelly referred to in the article which, while it may (or may not) be journalistic speculation, is at least contemporary. I'll do a bit of digging at a more civilised hour.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

The oldest school in Llanelli is claimed to be the Copperworks school, founded in 1847. On 28th June 1876, Mary Jane Kelly (17) daughter of Edward Kelly, a Copperman born in Ireland, married William Morgan in Swansea. She's about 4 years older than MJK was claimed to be. I guess she might be the Swansea Kelly referred to in the article which, while it may (or may not) be journalistic speculation, is at least contemporary. I'll do a bit of digging at a more civilised hour.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Colin-before you start doing a shed load of work on this, to save you some time-
The story posted by Simon refers to a girl named Abi or Aby Kelly and Paul Begg has written about her in The uncensored facts. There's a lot about it on the boards, both here and on How's site that might help you too.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

Thanks for that. It seems that whatever lead is followed with regard to MJK leads to the same place - nowhere!

Regards, Bridewell.