One Kelly family, in Wales.

[Wickerman]

First of all I have to say, this Kelly family must have been considered over the past 20 or so years. So may I ask our hard working researchers, do you recall why this family was passed over?
There must be a reason, perhaps this Mary Kelly lived a long and fruitful life?
Does anyone recall, or is it worth a second look?

http://tiny.cc/atdcdw

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Baffled of Bognor

I'm sorry Jon, but all I get is a "sign-in" page for Find my Past.

Dave

[PaulB]

Isn't that the Mary Kelly who Tony Williams claimed was Mary Kelly in Uncle Jack? If it is then I seem to recall that there were reasons why it wasn't her.

[Wickerman]

Sorry Dave, I didn't realize.
This is Piece 5517, folio 15
Current 1881 address was Broughton Colliery Cottages, Brymbo, Denbighshire, Wales.

KELLY, Hubert Head Married M 51 1830 General Laborer Ireland

KELLY, Bridget Wife Married F 47 1834 (none) Ireland

KELLY, Michel Son Single M 25 1856 Labourer Ireland

KELLY, John Son Single M 24 1857 General Laborer Ireland

KELLY, Hubert Son Single M 19 1862 General Laborer Ireland

KELLY, Mary Daughter Single F 17 1864 Servant Ireland

KELLY, Patrick Son Single M 13 1868 Scholar Ireland

KELLY, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar Ireland

KELLY, Garret F Son Single M 7 1874 Scholar Lodge Denbighshire Wales

KELLY, Thomas E Son Single M 4 1877 Ireland

KELLY, Timothy Son Single M 1 1880 Lodge Denbighshire Wales

[Wickerman]

That could be Paul, I'd like to know the details.

We can see from the birth dates that the last child born in Ireland was in 1871, the next born in Wales was 1874. So, they could have come over anywhere between those dates (1872-3), when Mary would have been 8 or 9 years old.

[Cogidubnus]

On the face of it Jon, a very interesting family...right number of sons and daughters...the only snags being Mary still being at home at 17 when she's supposed to be married and the (lack of an) alleged Carmarthen/Caernarvon/Cwmavon location...But, as Paul asks, has this one been aired before?

Dave

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
This was what I said in "Will the Real Mary Kelly"


A search of the 1881 census for Wales under the full name, Mary Jane Kelly, produced only three results, all far too young and none Irish born. There were 63 "Mary Kelly" entries, of whom 19 are noted as born in Ireland. Apart from the Mary Ann Kelly living in Flint, only one other record falls within the probable age range. This individual is listed as Mary Kelly, aged 17, living at Brymbo in Denbighshire. The full household listing for this young lady is as follows:
Address: Broughton Colliery Cottages, Brymbo, Denbighshire
Head: Hubert Kelly aged 51 born Ireland - General labourer
Wife: Bridget Kelly aged 47 born Ireland
Children:
Michel (sic) aged 25 born Ireland - Labourer
John aged 24 born Ireland - General labourer
Hubert aged 19 born Ireland - General labourer
Mary aged 17 born Ireland - Servant
Patrick aged 13 born Ireland
Elizabeth aged 10 born Ireland
Garret aged 7 born Denbigh Lodge
Thomas E aged 4 born Ireland
Timothy aged 1 born Denbigh Lodge
The most interesting correlation between this family and the Barnett account is his assertion that Kelly had one sister and six or seven brothers. This Mary Kelly, indeed, had one younger sister and seven brothers. The pattern of birthplaces for the children reveals that the family moved from Ireland to Wales in time for Garret Kelly to be born in Denbigh about 1874, was back in Ireland for the birth of Thomas in about 1877 and then returned to Wales for Timothy to be born back in Denbigh in 1880. Of course, this does not necessarily mean that the whole family undertook all these trips - it was only necessary for their mother, Bridget, to be in Ireland for the birth of Thomas, for whatever reason, for this pattern to be established.
......

1891 Census:

We have two families to follow through from the 1881 census. The Kelly family living at Brymbo are listed in 1891 at a different address and the head of the household, Hubert Kelly, had died in the intervening ten years. They are listed as follows:
Address: 12 Poplar Road, Wrexham Regis, Denbighshire
Head: Bridget Kelly aged 58 born Ireland - Widow
Children:
Patrick aged 23 born Ireland - Colliery banksman
Elizabeth aged 20 born Ireland - Dressmaker
Garret F aged 17 born Denbigh - Colliery banksman
Thomas Edward aged 13 born Ireland
Timothy aged 11 born Wrexham, Denbigh
The main points of interest here are the absence of the four oldest children - Michel, John, Hubert Jnr. and Mary, and the appearance of a hitherto unlisted son, Thomas Edward, who is not mentioned in the 1881 census. By 1881, John Kelly was married to Mary E. Kelly and had set up home at Lodge, Broughton and was described as a "Top foreman - coal." Of the other three siblings I have been unable to find any trace in the census record for 1891.

......

[Wickerman]

On the face of it Jon, a very interesting family...right number of sons and daughters...the only snags being Mary still being at home at 17 when she's supposed to be married and the (lack of an) alleged Carmarthen/Caernarvon/Cwmavon location...But, as Paul asks, has this one been aired before?

Dave

Hi Dave.
So long as Mary does not resurface in any records after 1888, this family deserves to be front and center.
Hypothetically, Mary could have married later in 1881, after the census. So marrying at 17 as opposed to the suggested 16. Not a serious impediment.

As Mary was still single in the 1881, she could easily have married, become a widow, moved to Cardiff and eventually to the West end of London, then to Whitechapel by 1884. I'm suspicious about the marriage (due to Chris's research), so I'd set that story aside for now.

The father not being called John is noticable, but did he prefer to be a John rather than a Hubert, or does a birth certificate record John Hubert or Hubert John?

The father could have taken a job in Carmarthen after the 1881 Census, or alternately, maybe it was his first job back in 1872-3 on first arriving in Wales?

I was hoping someone would/will come up with some paperwork to show this Mary did indeed live on after 1888, that would settle the issue.
If Chris did not come up with it, surely we have a family worthy of consideration here?

...The pattern of birthplaces for the children reveals that the family moved from Ireland to Wales in time for Garret Kelly to be born in Denbigh about 1874, was back in Ireland for the birth of Thomas in about 1877 and then returned to Wales for Timothy to be born back in Denbigh in 1880. Of course, this does not necessarily mean that the whole family undertook all these trips - it was only necessary for their mother, Bridget, to be in Ireland for the birth of Thomas, for whatever reason, for this pattern to be established.

Chris.
I noticed the same timing, strange that my wife is Irish but all her brothers are English. Her mother insisted on going back to Co. Claire to give birth to Ann, which immediately came to mind as I noticed that same sequence of dates, interesting.
And thankyou for expanding on this issue.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Although I have not yet located Mary's (from Brymbo) birth records, I have found both those of Patrick, who it states was born 08 Sept. 1867 at 27 Ballinasloe, Galway, IRE, and that of Elizabeth who was born on 06 April, 1870 at 32 Ballinasloe, Galway, IRE.
So we can see a slight difference in the birth years given previously.

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Here's one of the old archive threads:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/5397.html

My last post on the last archived thread is about this family, Jon. It then continues onto the next page.
I don't recall why this Mary was positively ruled out, facts wise. I was also interested in her sister Bridget and got quite excited when her name appeared on a marriage entry alongside a man named Davis but it turned out she married the other guy on the page!

I did wonder if the youngest child, born in Ireland was perhaps a child of one of the other females in the family.

[Debra A]

I thought it best to post the 1871 entry here too. This pinpoints the family's arrival in Wales to between 1870 and April 1871 and also gives us another sister for Mary.

1871 census transcription details for: Lodge, Brymbo

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10 Piece: 5654 Folio: 47 Page: 62


Reg. District: Wrexham Sub District: Wrexham
Parish: Brymbo Enum. District: 4
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Lodge, Brymbo
County: Denbighshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
KELLY, Hubert Head M 38 1833 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Wife F 36 1835 Ireland
KELLY, John Son M 14 1857 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Daughter F 12 1859 Ireland
KELLY, Hubert Son M 10 1861 Ireland
KELLY, Mary A Daughter F 8 1863 Ireland
KELLY, Patrick Son M 3 1868 Ireland
KELLY, Elizabeth Daughter F 1 1870 Ireland

[PaulB]

Some 16 miles from Ballinasloe, Galway, is Mountbellow (sometimes Mount Bellow) where a Mary Kelly was born on 15 November 1865 to Hubert Kelly and Bridget (Ruane).

The Brymbo Mary Kelly has also been identified with the daughter of Hubert Thomas Kelly Sr. (1830 – 1883) and Bridget McClure (1834– ), who married Michael McDermott (1855–1935) in 1891 and emigrated to the United States where she had three children, (Mary, John Joseph, and Annie). I am not sure on what evidence the identification of Mary Kelly/McDermott is made.

Oh, yes, she married this chap in Williamstown, which is close to Claremorris, where trawling through the cobwebbed archives of my aging memory I recall as somewhere that a Kelly in the Scots Guard hailed from.

[PaulB]

I thought it best to post the 1871 entry here too. This pinpoints the family's arrival in Wales to between 1870 and April 1871 and also gives us another sister for Mary.

1871 census transcription details for: Lodge, Brymbo

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10 Piece: 5654 Folio: 47 Page: 62


Reg. District: Wrexham Sub District: Wrexham
Parish: Brymbo Enum. District: 4
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Lodge, Brymbo
County: Denbighshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
KELLY, Hubert Head M 38 1833 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Wife F 36 1835 Ireland
KELLY, John Son M 14 1857 Ireland
KELLY, Bridget Daughter F 12 1859 Ireland
KELLY, Hubert Son M 10 1861 Ireland
KELLY, Mary A Daughter F 8 1863 Ireland
KELLY, Patrick Son M 3 1868 Ireland
KELLY, Elizabeth Daughter F 1 1870 Ireland

It's the John, Hubert (son), and Mary I've had trouble locating post-1881. The others I've have traced down to 1891.

[Jason]

This is going to sound very strange however there is an old lady who lived around the corner from me. She is still alive and probably about 96 now, i believe she is in a home currently.

A few years back i used to watch out for her and look after her garden, or help with a few things around the house. One day i was talking to her about the old days of the village and she got out lots of old photos of days gone by. I said something about loving old photos and spoke about my interest in the victorian times and also mentioned about the whitechapel murders and my fascination. She said something very strange which i have only now just tied in. She said something along the lines of "didnt one of them come from Brymbo?"........I know Brymbo because my mate used to play cricket for colwyn bay and bymbo was a place we used to often go and watch when he played. Being aware at the time of the Irish connection to Kelly and the swedish one to Stride, i didnt actually know which one she was referring to and probably dismissed her statement without actually in any way believing her.
Now this lady has lived in Flintshire all her life, she would have been born in the 1920s. Is it possible that she did know something i didnt or was this postulated long ago and she just took it as fact ( when it possibly wasnt ) ?

[Debra A]

It's the John, Hubert (son), and Mary I've had trouble locating post-1881. The others I've have traced down to 1891.

Going by the name of his son, which does read Hubert on the original, I think this is probably John in 1891?

1891 census transcription details for: Lodge, Tai Rowland, Broughton

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12 Piece: 4615 Folio: 27 Page: 48


Reg. District: Wrexham Sub District: Wrexham
Parish: Broughton Enum. District: 8
Ecclesiastical District: Brymbo City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Lodge, Tai Rowland, Broughton
County: Denbighshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
KELLY, John Head Married M 34 1857 Foreman Coal
Ireland
KELLY, Mary E Wife Married F 21 1870
Holt
Denbighshire
KELLY, Habert Geo Son M 5 1886
Broughton
Denbighshire
CHALLINER, Robert Brother In Law Widower M 28 1863 Coal Miner
Holt
Denbighshire
EDWARDS, Elizabeth Niece Single F 18 1873
Wrexham
Denbighshire