One Kelly family, in Wales.

[Debra A]

I just had a message from Jenni Shelden.

Research into this family formed part of her talk at Cardiff on the"Uncle Jack" book. This is the relevant part from Jenni's presentation:

"David Knott suggested that the Mary Kelly whom Williams and Price state was the same one as the final Ripper victim, was alive and well at the time of the 1891 census. He found a Mary Kelly marrying a Griffin Jones in 1886 and that there was a Mary Jones on the 1891 census with details that fit with those of the Kelly found on the 1881 census and identified as the same person as the Ripper victim by Williams and Price. Therefore the Mary Kelly identified by Williams and Price could not have been the Mary Kelly killed by Jack the Ripper in 1888. On Casebook David subsequently said on 2nd Feb 2006 “this is correct. The Mary Kelly identified in Uncle Jack from the 1881 census was actually a Mary Ann Kelly, not a Mary Jane Kelly, and she was married to Griffith Jones at St Marys Catholic Church on February 27th 1886. They were still together at the time of the 1901 census.”

[Trevor Marriott]

I just had a message from Jenni Shelden.

Research into this family formed part of her talk at Cardiff on the"Uncle Jack" book. This is the relevant part from Jenni's presentation:

"David Knott suggested that the Mary Kelly whom Williams and Price state was the same one as the final Ripper victim, was alive and well at the time of the 1891 census. He found a Mary Kelly marrying a Griffin Jones in 1886 and that there was a Mary Jones on the 1891 census with details that fit with those of the Kelly found on the 1881 census and identified as the same person as the Ripper victim by Williams and Price. Therefore the Mary Kelly identified by Williams and Price could not have been the Mary Kelly killed by Jack the Ripper in 1888. On Casebook David subsequently said on 2nd Feb 2006 “this is correct. The Mary Kelly identified in Uncle Jack from the 1881 census was actually a Mary Ann Kelly, not a Mary Jane Kelly, and she was married to Griffith Jones at St Marys Catholic Church on February 27th 1886. They were still together at the time of the 1901 census.”

I think the only Kelly not mentioned so far is the one Flannagan and Allen sung about "On Mother Kellys Doorstep"

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Debs.
So here we have the crux of the argument.
Given the extraordinary set of coincidences between the "bio" of the Millers Court victim and this "Mary from Brymbo", it may be worth giving all these documents a second look.

Much appreciated, Jon S.

[Supe]

Trev,

I think the only Kelly not mentioned so far is the one Flannagan and Allen sung about "On Mother Kellys Doorstep"

Aye, along with Mike "King" Kelly, the late 19th century baseball player who inspired the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" written by Frank Harding.

To illustrate the ubiquity of the name, in my small town in the early 20th century the "town team" often had five different Kellys in the nine-man starting lineup.

Don.

[curious]

Thankyou Debs.
So here we have the crux of the argument.
Given the extraordinary set of coincidences between the "bio" of the Millers Court victim and this "Mary from Brymbo", it may be worth giving all these documents a second look.

Much appreciated, Jon S.

Terrific research!

What are you thinking, Jon?

neighbor? cousin? Someone close to the family?

[PaulB]

I just had a message from Jenni Shelden.

Research into this family formed part of her talk at Cardiff on the"Uncle Jack" book. This is the relevant part from Jenni's presentation:

"David Knott suggested that the Mary Kelly whom Williams and Price state was the same one as the final Ripper victim, was alive and well at the time of the 1891 census. He found a Mary Kelly marrying a Griffin Jones in 1886 and that there was a Mary Jones on the 1891 census with details that fit with those of the Kelly found on the 1881 census and identified as the same person as the Ripper victim by Williams and Price. Therefore the Mary Kelly identified by Williams and Price could not have been the Mary Kelly killed by Jack the Ripper in 1888. On Casebook David subsequently said on 2nd Feb 2006 “this is correct. The Mary Kelly identified in Uncle Jack from the 1881 census was actually a Mary Ann Kelly, not a Mary Jane Kelly, and she was married to Griffith Jones at St Marys Catholic Church on February 27th 1886. They were still together at the time of the 1901 census.”

I don't think David Knott firmly established that Brymbo Mary and Mary the Beer were one and the same, though, but he did enough to make that part of the Uncle Jack story less than proven, which given the other gaping deficiencies of Williams theory was all that mattered. We now know, however, that Mary the Beer was alive in 1911, helping Griffith to run the Union Tavern in Wrexham, and that she gave her birthplace as Ballinasloe, which is where Brymbo Mary's father, Hubert, appears to have lived before coming with his family to Wales. The identification looks tight.

[PaulB]

Trev,

I think the only Kelly not mentioned so far is the one Flannagan and Allen sung about "On Mother Kellys Doorstep"

Aye, along with Mike "King" Kelly, the late 19th century baseball player who inspired the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" written by Frank Harding.

To illustrate the ubiquity of the name, in my small town in the early 20th century the "town team" often had five different Kellys in the nine-man starting lineup.

Don.

Don,
That we have a Mary Kelly moving to Wales and becoming Mary Jones makes this a significant genealogical research nightmare. All kudos to those who worked through it, and so quickly too.

[The Good Michael]

Aye, along with Mike "King" Kelly, the late 19th century baseball player who inspired the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" written by Frank Harding.

And Kelly, the Boy from Killane

Mike

[Debra A]

I don't think David Knott firmly established that Brymbo Mary and Mary the Beer were one and the same, though, but he did enough to make that part of the Uncle Jack story less than proven, which given the other gaping deficiencies of Williams theory was all that mattered. We now know, however, that Mary the Beer was alive in 1911, helping Griffith to run the Union Tavern in Wrexham, and that she gave her birthplace as Ballinasloe, which is where Brymbo Mary's father, Hubert, appears to have lived before coming with his family to Wales. The identification looks tight.

Oh, right.
I was thinking that because David Knott gave the exact date and place of the marrigae that he had the marriage certificate and seen Mary's father's name listed or something similar? Exact dates aren't shown in the marriage indexes so where did the date of February 27th come from?

[PaulB]

Oh, right.
I was thinking that because David Knott gave the exact date and place of the marrigae that he had the marriage certificate and seen Mary's father's name listed or something similar? Exact dates aren't shown in the marriage indexes so where did the date of February 27th come from?

Hi Debs,
He may have seen the marriage certificate for all I know, and as he has the date I assume he did, and in which case there would be no question about the identification, but I am not sure of that, hence my sort of querying it. All we need is confirmation, which Jen can probably provide. If David isn't around to do it himself.
Paul

[Debra A]

Hi Paul.
I'd already sent Jenni a message earlier this morning asking her the very same thing- if the marriage certificate had been seen, before I posted here.
Just waiting for a reply, but reading the message Jenni sent me yesterday it just struck me that it probably had been seen, given Dave knowing the exact church and exact date involved, which are not given in the marriage indexes.

[PaulB]

Hi Paul.
I'd already sent Jenni a message earlier this morning asking her the very same thing- if the marriage certificate had been seen, before I posted here.
Just waiting for a reply, but reading the message Jenni sent me yesterday it just struck me that it probably had been seen, given Dave knowing the exact church and exact date involved, which are not given in the marriage indexes.

Debs Rules, O.K.!
You are ahead of me all the way.

[Wickerman]

I just had a message from Jenni Shelden.

Research into this family formed part of her talk at Cardiff on the"Uncle Jack" book. This is the relevant part from Jenni's presentation:

"David Knott suggested that the Mary Kelly whom Williams and Price state was the same one as the final Ripper victim, was alive and well at the time of the 1891 census. He found a Mary Kelly marrying a Griffin Jones in 1886 ....

Interesting choice of words "a Mary Kelly", if the connection to the Brymbo family was established.
Hubert Kelly died in 1883?, it will be interesting to see who's name is on the 1886 marriage certificate under 'Father'.

On Casebook David subsequently said on 2nd Feb 2006 “this is correct. The Mary Kelly identified in Uncle Jack from the 1881 census was actually a Mary Ann Kelly, not a Mary Jane Kelly,

I had not seen our 'Brymbo' Mary carrying a middle name, don't we just have Mary Kelly?, neither Ann nor Jane?

It is refreshing to see that Paul holds reservations.

In a worse case scenario (for Brymbo Mary=MJK), if the identity cannot be established, then do we assume there are two Mary Kelly's which have identical albeit very basic "bio"s to our MJK?
Finding one was astonishing enough, arguing that there must be two is staggering considering that over the past 20+ years of geneological research this hypothetical 2nd MJK has remained totally elusive.

Who said geneology was boring....

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Interesting choice of words "a Mary Kelly", if the connection to the Brymbo family was established.
Hubert Kelly died in 1883?, it will be interesting to see who's name is on the 1886 marriage certificate under 'Father'.

Hubert Kelly, deceased, perhaps?

[Debra A]

In a worse case scenario (for Brymbo Mary=MJK), if the identity cannot be established, then do we assume there are two Mary Kelly's which have identical albeit very basic "bio"s to our MJK?

In the sense that they both belonged to Irish families named Kelly, who settled in Wales?