Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

No Debs I did not mean to suggest a battalion would split.
Why did I shift to saying "units"?
I'll explain.
The thought occured to me that Barnett might have confused Scots Guards with Scots Greys. But was there ever any battalions in what was basically a cavalry regiment?

Well actually yes, once there was, but before the 19th century.
The Scots Greys also rotated on what was known as Home Service, but in the 19th century I know of no battalions in this regiment. However, the Scots Greys did rotate through England, Scotland AND Ireland. But as of this writing I have found no reason to suggest they were in Dublin in the important period.
I just though it better to refer to military units rather than specify battalions.

So it was as I thought, then. Good, I can sleep tonight, now.
Seriously, though, I also had a similar idea about confusion with a similar regiment and so checked the Scots Fusiliers, who also had a 2nd Battalion, but nothing jumped out at me there either.

[Debra A]

Hello Debs.

"if MJK couldn't read then who was reading these family letters from her mother to her?"

Indeed. And why did I find a snippet in a newspaper calling her "scholarly"?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
Yes,there is that too. Good point.
A while back I asked the question of whether the descriptions of MJK as artistic and scholarly could have come as a direct result of her being identified in the newspapers as Abi Kelly. No one answered me, but I did check this out in the papers and found the scholarly description was independent of the Abi Kelly reports.

[Sally]

I don't see how it's really possible not to conclude that 'Mary Jane Kelly (or Marie Jeanette if we like) was an alias - because it is apparent even from the little documentary evidence that survives that the authorities at the time couldn't trace her from the information which they had.

No family members came forward after her death. That in itself might not be difficult to explain - but no family members were apparently traced either; this in spite of Kelly allegedly having corresponded with family members.

The Cardiff Infirmary apparently had no record of her; although according to Barnett she was incarcertated there for some months.

Welsh newspapers at the time thought they had identified her; but eventually concluded that they hadn't.

The point of all the above is that nobody could identify her at the time - even given the commonplace Kelly surname, the information given by Barnett ought to have been enough to find some trace of this woman.

Assuming Kelly was an alias, as seems almost certain in my view, that obviously puts the modern researcher at the same disadvantage as was apparent at the time. However, it doesn't mean that no part of her story was true - indeed, it looks from the appearance of Mrs Carthy and Elizabeth Phoenix (an alias in itself?) that parts of the story were true.

All it would take is for some parts of the story to be true to offer a chance of identifying the woman we know as Mary Kelly. To that end, perhaps the Scots Guards offers a viable line of enquiry for somebody with the patience to research every contemporary Scots Guard.

I have to say it looks like a slim chance though.

[lynn cates]

not illiterate

Hello Debs. Thank you very much. I have been seeking that snippet and have wondered if my mind had wandered--did I dream it, or what? Delighted that you can confirm it.

If there is anything in it, it may go a long way towards combating the notion that MJK was an illiterate person.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

aspects of the story

Hello Sally. That part of her story is what is currently driving research on this thread. But I wonder whether there may not be more fruitful avenues for research based upon other aspects of her/Barnett's story?

I know that much time/effort have been devoted to researching the mining disaster/Davies aspect of the case. In particular, Debs and Chris have spent untold hours on this. So far, no luck.

Ideas?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

I found that the cardiff Union workhouse had an Infirmary attached to it. Am I right in thinking this isn't the same as the Cardiff Royal Infirmary?
I wondered if the Cardiff workhouse/infirmary in 1881 might be worth checking too, given what Chris Scott mentioned about the timeline for the Infirmary stay?

[Bridewell]

Worth researching?

I found that the cardiff Union workhouse had an Infirmary attached to it. Am I right in thinking this isn't the same as the Cardiff Royal Infirmary?
I wondered if the Cardiff workhouse/infirmary in 1881 might be worth checking too, given what Chris Scott mentioned about the timeline for the Infirmary stay?

Hi Debs,

Very definitely worth researching, I would have thought. I think, too, we have to be a little flexible with the age. Barnett was told by MJK that she was 25. Perhaps we should accept that she may have been anywhere from about 21 to 31 when she died - so 14 to 24 at the time of the 1881 census. She could have been older, or even younger than she claimed (the latter perhaps to disguise being a prostitute from a young age?).

I don't want to raise any hopes but, referring to an earlier post re the Cardiff Infirmary, I can't find any trace of Cornwall-born Phillippa Gummow after 1881. No census entry, marriage, death or emigration. Probably coincidence.

Regards, Bridewell

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

Very definitely worth researching, I would have thought. I think, too, we have to be a little flexible with the age. Barnett was told by MJK that she was 25. Perhaps we should accept that she may have been anywhere from about 21 to 31 when she died - so 14 to 24 at the time of the 1881 census. She could have been older, or even younger than she claimed (the latter perhaps to disguise being a prostitute from a young age?).

I don't want to raise any hopes but, referring to an earlier post re the Cardiff Infirmary, I can't find any trace of Cornwall-born Phillippa Gummow after 1881. No census entry, marriage, death or emigration. Probably coincidence.

Regards, Bridewell

Hi Bridewell. Thanks for the feedback .
I am having a bit of trouble deciding if the 1881 list for the Union workhouse also covers the Union Infirmary. The Union Infirmary later became St David's Hospital from what I can gather, so it looks to be different from the Royal Infirmary on Newport Rd, but I could do with a second opinion from someone.
If or when I get it figured out I'll post a list of the inmates.

[Wickerman]

For me, there's a few problems with your scenario though, Jon.
Firstly, if MJK couldn't read then who was reading these family letters from her mother to her? I would assume Barnett? Yet, from his lack of knowledge of the family,it seems not.

There's a brief and somewhat obscure comment by Barnett that always had me wondering.
Barnett said Mary went to France, she was there only two weeks because "she did not like the part"?
There's another comment somewhere that Mary had a friend/relative on the stage.
Did she go to France to play a role on stage as an actress, or as an extra?
If so, surely she could read.

Also, we have another comment about Mary's father coming to Pennington-street to look for her, but she avoided him.
How did her father come by an address?, is it possible that this is the address that the letters from Ireland came to, those from her mother?
McCarthy knew about Mary receiving letters from Ireland, but he does not claim to have received them himself.
McCarthy's comment could be explained by the landlady from Pennington-street forwarding a letter received from Ireland to McCarthy's place, passing it on to Mary. According to Barnett, she never wrote back?

With respect to any tradition, surely Mary's father could read, given his "gaffer" job at the Iron Works. Likely then he made sure the boys could read, so why not Mary?
Then there's another question, was she taught to read Gaelic in Ireland (before 16) or English?, or both?
Did her mother write to her in Gaelic? Thats why she never responded, she had lost touch with the language in the last 10 years?
Maybe her English reading was still not great (Barnett reading for her), but her Gaelic was even worse?

I always prefer to work with what we have rather than reject what we don't understand. The challenge is to make sense of it

All the best, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Oxymoron personified

Maybe her English reading was still not great (Barnett reading for her), but her Gaelic was even worse?

I always prefer to work with what we have rather than reject what we don't understand. The challenge is to make sense of it

I'm sorry Jon, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this appears to me to be a total contradiction in terms...

Best wishes

Dave

[Debra A]

There's a brief and somewhat obscure comment by Barnett that always had me wondering.
Barnett said Mary went to France, she was there only two weeks because "she did not like the part"?
There's another comment somewhere that Mary had a friend/relative on the stage.
Did she go to France to play a role on stage as an actress, or as an extra?
If so, surely she could read.

Also, we have another comment about Mary's father coming to Pennington-street to look for her, but she avoided him.
How did her father come by an address?, is it possible that this is the address that the letters from Ireland came to, those from her mother?
McCarthy knew about Mary receiving letters from Ireland, but he does not claim to have received them himself.
McCarthy's comment could be explained by the landlady from Pennington-street forwarding a letter received from Ireland to McCarthy's place, passing it on to Mary. According to Barnett, she never wrote back?

With respect to any tradition, surely Mary's father could read, given his "gaffer" job at the Iron Works. Likely then he made sure the boys could read, so why not Mary?
Then there's another question, was she taught to read Gaelic in Ireland (before 16) or English?, or both?
Did her mother write to her in Gaelic? Thats why she never responded, she had lost touch with the language in the last 10 years?
Maybe her English reading was still not great (Barnett reading for her), but her Gaelic was even worse?

I always prefer to work with what we have rather than reject what we don't understand. The challenge is to make sense of it

All the best, Jon S.

Ermm...OK, Jon.

Party at Wicks place everyone!

[Wickerman]

C'mon, wake up Debs...

Do you remember if this line of enquiry was ever pursued?

If her name was Kelly we have a very promising birth entry that has always been there, which needs following up, Which means delving deep into Irish records.
Three siblings born to John Kelly and Anne McCarthy [ coincidence ] ? of CASTLETOWN LIMERICK

Mary Kelly born 1864
John Kelly born 1866
Peter Kelly born 1868
A birth date of 1864 is right for her death at 25,
John was 22 in 1888 old enough for a soldier.
I have not the resources for this, it would mean checking parish records for a marriage of John and Anne, addresses, possible births of other children and seeing if this Mary stayed or married in Limerick which would rule her out, or if she or the whole family disappear, possibly to Wales.
If anyone wants to take it on, its a big task, just tracing that one family.
Cheers Miss Marple

It is one of the oldest results we've had on Casebook but for the life of me I cannot remember who sourced it out.

Thanks, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

So, with respect Jon, what's that to do with what you've lately been posting?

Puzzled

Dave

[Garry Wroe]

As far as can be determined, Kelly owned half a candle and the clothes she stood up in. So what were these 'possessions' that were allegedly returned to her alleged brother who was allegedly serving in the army?

[Cogidubnus]

So, with respect Jon, what's that to do with what you've lately been posting?

Actually, on a hunch, I just looked, and you've actually ignored the last two or three queries I had, yet had a good chip at Debs...I do trust your critical analysis isn't sex-biased?

Dave