Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

Hi Debs!

I've been thinking about what Curious4 said somewhere recently with regard to Mary Kelly's supposed stay in the Cardiff Infirmary for some months. Curious4 mentioned that as 'lesions' on Mary's lungs could have been healed tuberculosis then maybe that was the reason why Mary was there.

What I'm wondering is: is the Cardiff Infirmary still there, and, if so, would they have records from that time still in existence?

Love,
Mum
( Sorry dear. I'm trying to remember).

Carol

Hi Carol

Yes, I think a few people as well as curious have mentioned that Mary probably had tuberculosis in past discussions too. It seems likely doesn't it?

As far as I remember, Chris Scott inquired about the Cardiff Infirmary records a few years ago and was told that they no longer exist. Chris can correct me if I've remembered that wrong as it's going back a fair bit.


That gave me a good laugh, Carol! Thanks.

[Cogidubnus]

It is inconceivable that not a single person made the connection between ‘their’ Mary and the woman who was murdered in Miller’s Court. Inconceivable, that is, unless Kelly had so distorted her personal history that it proved unrecognizable to those who knew her in her pre-London existence.

Hi Garry. I take your point...however the south west of Ireland in those days was still truly deep-rural...many villages or hamlets, I suspect rarely saw a newspaper, and had only a very skeletal postal service to/from a nearby town, from/to which they'd collect/deliver their mail on an as-and-when basis.

(We're on one of those cusps of Irish history...the population halves between 1841 and 1891 and huge areas are only sparcely populated....the rural areas are the worst affected and this has delayed the spread of modern services into the more traditional gaeltacht...a fuller recovery from the effects of the famine years of the 1850s is still around the corner)

Under the circumstances I think it's possible Mary's family simply did not know...but also note your observations regarding the likely distortion of her history!

When all's said and done, it'll be something of a miracle if we can ever trace MJK...but, like you, I don't think that ought to stop us trying!

All the best!

Dave

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Debs. Yes, I believe so.

Cheers.
LC

[Chris Scott]

Hi Debs
Yes it is quite some time ago but I'll see if I can find any notes on what I did about the Cardiff Infirmary - I know that nothing material came of it.
This is what I put in the Mary Kelly book:
"The Cardiff interlude lasted from the death of Davies until 1884, the year she allegedly moved to London. The only time reference Barnett quotes is the 8 or 9 months that Kelly spent in an infirmary, a period of time, perhaps, suspiciously close to that of a pregnancy carried to term. No record has ever been found of this stay of Kelly's, and we cannot be sure that it would have been in the main Cardiff Infirmary. The phrase that she "followed a bad life with a cousin," is intriguing. The usual interpretation is that the cousin of Kelly's was a prostitute and she led Mary into the life of an "unfortunate." That is certainly a possibility, but we must remember that the gender of the cousin is not specified. What if the cousin was a he, not a she? What if that stay in the infirmary was the result of a liaison with this cousin? Mere speculation, but as possible as the other version on the basis of such a paucity of fact."

The stay of Kelly in the Cardiff Infirmary COULD just have coincided with the 1881 census. This depends on many speculative dates. IF Kelly was 25 when she died she would have been born about 1863. IF she married, as Barnett states, when she was 16, this would have been about 1879. IF the marriage lasted somewhere about 1 to 2 years then Davies could have died in the colliery explosion in 1880 or 1881. IF the widowed Kelly then went to live in Cardiff with her cousin and stayed in the Infirmary this could have been in 1881.
A long time back I found the 1881 records for the main Cardiff infirmary and listed them, but there was, as far as I remember, no promising looking record.
regards
Chris S

[Chris Scott]

The 1881 Cardiff Infirmary Records to which I made reference in an earlier post can be found as follows:
Year 1881
Wales Census
County: Glamorgan
Borough: Cardiff
Parish: Cardiff St John
Disrict: 3a
Commencing Page 3

Address: Newport Road Infirmary, Cardiff
House Surgeon in 1881:
Thomas W Graves aged 23 born Leominster, Herefordshire
Surgeon, L.S.A., M.R.C.S.

Female Patients in 1881:
Jane Jones aged 25
Mary Morgan aged 33
Margaret Smith aged 27
Annie Roach aged 8
Letty Ann Fudge aged 7
Mary William aged 33
Phillipa Gummow aged 16
Emily Coleman aged 22
Mary Clancy aged 50
Emily scott aged 78
Eliza Nicholls aged 55
Elizabeth Griffiths aged 32
Margaret Bishop aged 48
Amy Morris aged 25
Ellen Williams aged 28
Ellen Mountign aged 33
Elizabeth Thomas aged 26
Annie Evans aged 21
Ellen Harrison aged 24
Maria Marsden aged 34
Louisa Pritchard aged 19
Elizabeth James aged 44

The only one of these listed as born in Ireland is Mary Clamcy, a washerwoman listed as born in Cork.

[Chris Scott]

http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?inst_id=33&coll_id=76346&expand=

Some background:-
The history of the Cardiff Royal Infirmary began in 1822 when the Cardiff Dispensary was set up on Newport Road. This institution became the Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire Infirmary and Dispensary on its removal to new buildings in 1837. The present building facing Glossop Road opened in 1883 on land leased by the marquess of Bute and the older premises were leased, later sold to the University College of South Wales and Monmouthshire. The name of the hospital changed to the Cardiff Infirmary; from 1911 to 1923, the hospital was known as the King Edward VII Hospital. In 1923 it became known as the Cardiff Royal Infirmary. Initial provision was for 100 beds but the rapid growth in the population of Cardiff and the neighbouring area necessitated major extensions in 1894-5, 1910-11 and during the First World War, and the number of beds rose to more than 500 by the time of the establishment of the National Health Service. A chapel was provided immediately after the war. The Cardiff Lunatic Asylum was officially opened in 1908, and was later renamed as the Cardiff City Mental Hospital. Between 1914-1919 the hospital was taken over by the military. Medical teaching was largely transferred to the Welsh National School in 1921 and maternity provision was transferred to the Maternity Hospital on the opposite side of Glossop Road in 1945-6. The opening of the University Hospital of Wales on the Heath in 1972 gradually reduced dependence on outmoded, cramped facilities at the Royal Infirmary, and most medical treatment had ceased by 2000. The hospital is now (2005) used as a clinic.

Records available:
Cardiff Royal Infirmary records including minute books, 1822-1944; annual reports, 1837-1970; nursing records, 1904-1964; photographs, c1890-1969; miscellaneous records, 1898-1988; records relating to the Cardiff City Mental Hospital including annual reports, 1944-1947; newspaper cuttings, 1914-1951

Anyone who fancies having a crack at this, have a look at the web link at the top of this message
Chris

[Chris Scott]

An image from the 1890s

[Bridewell]

The 1881 Cardiff Infirmary Records to which I made reference in an earlier post can be found as follows:
Year 1881
Wales Census
County: Glamorgan
Borough: Cardiff
Parish: Cardiff St John
Disrict: 3a
Commencing Page 3

Address: Newport Road Infirmary, Cardiff
House Surgeon in 1881:
Thomas W Graves aged 23 born Leominster, Herefordshire
Surgeon, L.S.A., M.R.C.S.

Female Patients in 1881:
Jane Jones aged 25
Mary Morgan aged 33
Margaret Smith aged 27
Annie Roach aged 8
Letty Ann Fudge aged 7
Mary William aged 33
Phillipa Gummow aged 16
Emily Coleman aged 22
Mary Clancy aged 50
Emily scott aged 78
Eliza Nicholls aged 55
Elizabeth Griffiths aged 32
Margaret Bishop aged 48
Amy Morris aged 25
Ellen Williams aged 28
Ellen Mountign aged 33
Elizabeth Thomas aged 26
Annie Evans aged 21
Ellen Harrison aged 24
Maria Marsden aged 34
Louisa Pritchard aged 19
Elizabeth James aged 44

The only one of these listed as born in Ireland is Mary Clamcy, a washerwoman listed as born in Cork.

Hi Chris,

I'm aware that you've probably done more research on this than anyone. Have you checked out any of these names already? If not, 'll have a go over the next day or two and see what turns up.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

18

Hello Chris. Thanks for posting this. I presume that MJK would be about 18 at the time?

Cheers.
LC

[Chris Scott]

Hi Bridewell
On the basis that there was no even rough match on age, place of birth etc I did not progress this list. As I said there is only one woman listed as born in Ireland, Mary Clancy, but she is listed as 50 years old.
Just on the basis of probability, the chances that Kelly's stay at the Infirmary (if it happened) coincided with the taking of the 1881 census is, in my opinion, remote.
However I would be very interested to see what you come up with
All the best
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Bridewell
To help below are the original listings - this gives places of birth and trade
This may help

[Chris Scott]

Hi Lynn
If the age given for Kelly at the time of death (i.e. 25 years old in Nov 1888) was correct then she would, in April 1881 (the time of the census) have been 17 or 18 years of age, depending on when her birthday fell in the year.
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Lastly some other images of Cardiff Infirmary I found on my hard disk from when I was looking at this originally
Three early 20th century images - Gwendolen and Bute wards (Women's wards) and the operating theatre
Chris

[Wickerman]

The 2nd battalion Scots Guards were in London from Jul 87 ( Barnett met Mary earlier that same year)and left for Dublin in Sept. 88. Are you saying part of the 2nd Battalion could have been in Dublin before Sept 88, while the rest were in London, Jon?

Oh no Debs, sorry, I thought you knew. British battalions moved around on rotation. We have some units abroad in combat, some units in training at designated camps, while other units were on duty, like at the Tower. They all rotate over a period of time.

What I meant to say, in the long version is, that at some earlier rotation when the 2nd were stationed in Dublin, or elsewhere in Ireland, Henry might have joined up then. I meant it is not necessary for Henry to have journeyed to England to join up.
Also, we don't know how old he was, he may have been senior to Mary and joined up in the 1870's.

Stop with the Ianto!!! It isn't my argument.

Yes, I had not forgotten you are "Jonto" (from Johns(t)on), though I fail to see how this fits in with a Henry Kelly (enlisted as Henry Johnson?). Actually that would be a neat play on words for Henry.
I was just sharing another point against this Ianto hypothesis.

You don't know that Henry also living in Wales is a modern assumption,you have no idea what was assumed by the police in 1888 if they had the same info from Barnett that is left to us. Barnett's statements are not specific either way.

The police didn't need to assume anything, it was not them who gave him the name Yanto. What I was saying is, that this Yanto (from Johnto) hypothesis is fueled by the suggestion that the whole family, including Henry, moved to Wales.
We do not have good reason to assume such a thing.

The mother was still writing from Limerick. Barnett makes no suggestion that her sister or the other 6 brothers were anywhere outside Ireland.
Then there's Albrook who tells us that Mary wished she could go back to her family in Ireland.

Tracing family and associates is important in a murder investigation, it wasn't as simple as wanting to find someone to pay for the funeral. I would assume that the Met. police were at least as thorough in tracing MJKs family as they had been in other murder cases.

Apparently not, or at least none of them made themselves known at the funeral. Looking for a "Kelly" in Ireland might be like looking for a "Chan" in China.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my earlier question on why we have no mention in the inquest reporting in the papers of what name Henry was known as by his comrades in the Scots Guards.
You claim it's significant they don't mention 'Johnto' as recorded by Abberline , but neither do any of the papers report that Henry's comrades called him John. These comrades are not mentioned at all.

I had not responded because I couldn't find where you say I made the claim.
I had said this is just a straight forward spelling issue, but Garry thought Johnto did appear in the press. I guess until this source re-surfaces we will remain in limbo on that issue.

All the best, Jon Smyth

[Wickerman]

Under the circumstances I think it's possible Mary's family simply did not know...but also note your observations regarding the likely distortion of her history!

The point to avoid Dave, is the tendency to draw conclusions from what we do not know. Assuming the police made an attempt to find her relatives, they would naturally approach the military, but, as we keep saying, if Henry enlisted under a different name they would be stumped.

There were no pictures to publish to help locate her family. Without an address, assuming no letters remained, the police have no avenue to pursue.
It really is not a mystery and should not be exaggerated by anyone into being viewed as a mystery, some people are drawn towards the dramatic.

With respect inventing her past, the journey to France is perhaps the most elaborate. Whether true or not, a catholic girl is just as likely to have been born as Mary Jane as Marie Jeanette, so she may have romanticised her name to a degree.

However, there is nothing romantic about her past living in Wales and being introduced to the sleezy side of life by her cousin. From what we've read, albeit all second hand stories, she tells a pretty sad tale altogether.
There may be inaccuracies in some of these accounts but I see no reason to suggest deliberate subterfuge from Mary, though some never tire of dressing the mundane up to be mysterious.

Regards, Jon S.