Kellys in the Scots Guards

[lynn cates]

depending

Hello Chris. Thanks. Contingent, as you say.

Cheers.
LC

[Archaic]

Cardiff Infirmary

Hi, here are some more photos of the Infirmary.

Derelict areas of Cardiff Royal Infirmary:

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=17533

Victorian Web article about its restoration: http://www.victorianweb.org/art/arch.../seward/2.html

More old Cardiff photos: http://www.cardiffians.co.uk/penylan_roath/index.shtml

Best regards,
Archaic

[PaulB]

Not that it adds a jot to the hunt for Kelly, but one little Ripper researcher first opened his eyes on the world there. Later he lost his tonsils there. The ward hadn't changed much from the one shown a few posts back.

[Chris Scott]

Not that it adds a jot to the hunt for Kelly, but one little Ripper researcher first opened his eyes on the world there. Later he lost his tonsils there. The ward hadn't changed much from the one shown a few posts back.

Awww - bless :-))

[Chris Scott]

Hi Archaic
many thanks for those links - the pics of the deserted wards etc are very atmospheric and I'm glad that the dereliction has been reversed and the building restored.
Anyone know what it is currently used for?
I also read it was used for the filming of part of a modern Doctor Who episode but I don;t know which one
Chris

[Debra A]

Oh no Debs, sorry, I thought you knew. British battalions moved around on rotation. We have some units abroad in combat, some units in training at designated camps, while other units were on duty, like at the Tower. They all rotate over a period of time.

What I meant to say, in the long version is, that at some earlier rotation when the 2nd were stationed in Dublin, or elsewhere in Ireland, Henry might have joined up then. I meant it is not necessary for Henry to have journeyed to England to join up.
Also, we don't know how old he was, he may have been senior to Mary and joined up in the 1870's.

Thanks for the explanation Jon, but when you say 'unit' do you mean the Battalion was split into smaller groups that were spread around? This was my question. I understand that the different Battalions move around but I assumed they move around as one unit, so ALL the 2nd Battalion would be in Dublin at the same time? Is this not right?

The 2nd Battalion reportedly were in London 87-late 88 and then went to Dublin in Sept 88 as one Battalion. In your last sentence you talk of the 2nd Battalion being stationed in Dublin in Ireland at an earlier time, yes,that could have happened but the records I am using show exactly where someone was attested and when. I have checked men attested as far back as 1868 so far.
No one is saying 'Henry' couldn't have joined up in Ireland, but if the battalion travel together he would have come back to England in 87 and not go back to Ireland until Sept 88?

Yes, I had not forgotten you are "Jonto" (from Johns(t)on), though I fail to see how this fits in with a Henry Kelly (enlisted as Henry Johnson?). Actually that would be a neat play on words for Henry.
I was just sharing another point against this Ianto hypothesis.

I found it interesting that the nickname 'Jonto' is associated (and I gave examples) with the name john(s)ton. That's all. It kind of makes more sense in that case that Henry Kelly in the 2B Scots Guards could possibly have been someone named Johns(t)on, whether brother or lover.

The police didn't need to assume anything, it was not them who gave him the name Yanto. What I was saying is, that this Yanto (from Johnto) hypothesis is fueled by the suggestion that the whole family, including Henry, moved to Wales.
We do not have good reason to assume such a thing.

We don't need to mention Ianto in this discussion.
Mary reportedly went to Wales when young Barnett said, he mentioned other members of the family but wasn't specific about who went where, I will agree with you there. Mary had a cousin in Wales and obviously her father too. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to assume that the police would also think the whole Kelly family along with Henry etc. also moved to Wales, as we assume it too and look for them there.

The mother was still writing from Limerick. Barnett makes no suggestion that her sister or the other 6 brothers were anywhere outside Ireland.
Then there's Albrook who tells us that Mary wished she could go back to her family in Ireland.

Yet Barnett tells us that Mary never received communication from her family and wasn't in touch with them. Why would Mary deceive him about that? And if the letters were from Mary's mother, all Mccarthy had to do was wait until another letter arrived from Ireland and hand it in to the police...the mother and family would then be traced?


Debs

[Chris Scott]

I have had the good fortune this morning to find a very helpful council officer in Cardiff City Council. He works in the department that deals with conservation and listed buildings etc. and he informed me of the current status of the Cardiff Royal Infirmary (CRI) and its future.
I saw the pictures on the link that Archaic posted that showed derelict areas of the CRI in 2007. The chap at Cardiff City Council told me that the CRI is now covered in scaffolding and the restoration is under way. The building is owned by the Council and parts of it are still used by the local NHS trust.
The man I spoke to was extremely helpful and has offered to send me a copy of the full restoration plan which should be extremely interesting and he also offered to arrange a full tour of the restoration site if I can get to Cardiff!
The current status of the building - those parts not in use by the health trust - are now watertight and sound and parts are being mothballed until a suitable tenant can be found.
I did explain the angle of my research and the JTR connection and he was extremely interested and I promised to keep him fully apprised of my research and any developments.
Watch this space
Chris

[Debra A]

Thanks for all the great stuff on the Cardiff Infirmary everyone, love those ward pics, Chris!
And thanks for posting the details of the records available and census info, Chris.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Debs
Thanks:-)
I have just started a separate thread about the Infirmary as the recent stuff about it is confusing the excellent research by yourself (and others!!) into the Scots Guards
regards
Chris

[Debra A]

I have had the good fortune this morning to find a very helpful council officer in Cardiff City Council. He works in the department that deals with conservation and listed buildings etc. and he informed me of the current status of the Cardiff Royal Infirmary (CRI) and its future.
I saw the pictures on the link that Archaic posted that showed derelict areas of the CRI in 2007. The chap at Cardiff City Council told me that the CRI is now covered in scaffolding and the restoration is under way. The building is owned by the Council and parts of it are still used by the local NHS trust.
The man I spoke to was extremely helpful and has offered to send me a copy of the full restoration plan which should be extremely interesting and he also offered to arrange a full tour of the restoration site if I can get to Cardiff!
The current status of the building - those parts not in use by the health trust - are now watertight and sound and parts are being mothballed until a suitable tenant can be found.
I did explain the angle of my research and the JTR connection and he was extremely interested and I promised to keep him fully apprised of my research and any developments.
Watch this space
Chris

I wonder if they still have Paul's tonsils?

Good news about the conservation/restoration plans.
You should arrange a Cardiff Hospital Job, Chris! A tour of the hospital and then a group trawl of the surviving records!
Great work, Chris.

[Archaic]

Tonsils

Not that it adds a jot to the hunt for Kelly, but one little Ripper researcher first opened his eyes on the world there. Later he lost his tonsils there. The ward hadn't changed much from the one shown a few posts back.

I wonder if they still have Paul's tonsils?

No, the Cardiff Infirmary sold them to a peculiar American doctor who said he wanted to complete his private collection of human body parts displayed in glass jars.

Cheers,
Archaic

[Carol]

Hi Carol

Yes, I think a few people as well as curious have mentioned that Mary probably had tuberculosis in past discussions too. It seems likely doesn't it?

As far as I remember, Chris Scott inquired about the Cardiff Infirmary records a few years ago and was told that they no longer exist. Chris can correct me if I've remembered that wrong as it's going back a fair bit.


That gave me a good laugh, Carol! Thanks.

Thanks for your reply, Debs.
Carol

[Carol]

Hi everyone,

I've had an extremely quick look at all the information and tomorrow I'll look properly. All I can say is 'Wow! Boy, are you lot wonderful!'

See you tomorrow.

Carol

[Cogidubnus]

The point to avoid Dave, is the tendency to draw conclusions from what we do not know. Assuming the police made an attempt to find her relatives, they would naturally approach the military, but, as we keep saying, if Henry enlisted under a different name they would be stumped.

There were no pictures to publish to help locate her family. Without an address, assuming no letters remained, the police have no avenue to pursue. It really is not a mystery and should not be exaggerated by anyone into being viewed as a mystery, some people are drawn towards the dramatic.

I don't think I read anywhere that anybody was drawing any firm hard and fast conclusions about anything Jon...At most just speculating on possible scenarios which might or might not be worthy of further research....a series of "what-ifs" if you like....And whilst I agree that it may be tempting to prematurely formulate complex theories on insufficient data, as far as I can see nobody, (including myself), was actually doing that.

If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that because we know nothing, then we shouldn't cast around for possible avenues for further research, I'm very much afraid we'll all be doomed to a lifetime of ignorance! Frankly I'd rather spend a little time speculating with good friends rather than sit on my hands in the corner

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Well said, Dave. Good post!